Topic: Ops in oldies - opinions (Read 10273 times)

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #46 on:** November 17, 2007, 12:44:35 PM »

It used to be around that time, of course it isnt something anyone can set in stone really. For me personally during work i'd say the the largest number of cats passed between 14-16 years old with a lot of exceptions either side but that was certainly my experience.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #45 on:** November 16, 2007, 22:31:27 PM »

Interesting that the old average was 14ish, it seems to be the age most of mine get to. Yeah, that does make sense really - blood aren't somethign that everyone sees as important though.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #44 on:** November 16, 2007, 22:28:22 PM »

I agree with you but there has to be a line i suppose and although alot of cats are living much longer there are also still large numbers living to the old average of 14ish. Also with strays you dont always know so could be out by a couple of years therefor if the guideline for "middle aged/senior was 9 then possible your cat of unknown age waiting until then for routine senior bloods etc could be a couple of years older, if ya get my meaning - better to under estimate than delay.

other than that i have no idea why the general age was put for that years of age

Teresa Pawcats · « **Reply #43 on:** November 16, 2007, 20:51:39 PM »

Buster will be 22years young on 8th December and he insists on being classed as a young adult, despite having the playful streak of a kitten.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #42 on:** November 16, 2007, 20:47:52 PM »

Pet food says 8 for senior, but I dont believe that, that is more middle aged to me. As Ela says, more cats are living to late teens now (I am currently sharing a room with a 17yo and nearly 15yo!!).

blackcat · « **Reply #41 on:** November 16, 2007, 20:44:01 PM »

not as far as I know. Mine go onto senior food at that age. And the hills packet says that is the age they recommend, so I guess that is when they reach the stage of needing dietary support...

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #40 on:** November 16, 2007, 20:42:12 PM »

The official age when a cat became classed as "senior" was 7 years old, unless that has changed in the past 5 years ?

Should have gone on to say i believe that is (or was ) the age when the life stage diets recommended the switching over and also the age veterinary practices may deem pre ga bloods etc perhaps more appropriate.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #39 on:** November 16, 2007, 20:41:29 PM »

That's interesting - I dont class them as being old till at least 12, so i think I would see middle aged as 8, and poss too young for me to consider bloods for a dental.

Ela · « **Reply #38 on:** November 16, 2007, 14:26:29 PM »

Ela - what do you class as middle aged?

Um let me think. 10 ish, although with bloods perhaps younger. I say 10 ish because we have many cats survive until their very late teens and into their twenties.

Dawn (DiddyDawn) · « **Reply #37 on:** November 14, 2007, 22:06:46 PM »

I've had a couple of cats that have had to be sedated for bloods. I need to get Smudge blood tested as her lympth nodes are up again and she is one they will need to sedate. She turns into a hissing, spitting monster just taking her to the vets and she even had me worried last time

I'll wait til I have my brave head on and then book her in.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #36 on:** November 14, 2007, 22:03:08 PM »

Molly has issues with her blood being taken, but all they do is book 2 slots, and she has some anaesthetic gel put on her neck, and allows it then - we did the same for Tiger this year, and she was fine, despite the fact that at home, Tiger is the aggressive one!!
Ela - what do you class as middle aged?

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #35 on:** November 14, 2007, 19:13:10 PM »

Only on very rare occasions have i seen cats needing to be sedated to get the bloods in the first place but sometimes they can be so unmanagable its the only way, however seems abit strange if he was never like that before.

When you go back for the follow up bloods dont be surprised if the vn has to hold buddie but i can see no reason why you cant be present during the procedure.

chrisleitz · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2007, 15:21:36 PM »

Gill, exactly my thoughts. He has to have follow-up bloods in a month time and I told them I will be in there holding him and keeping him calm. My old vet always said he is as good as gold and never a problem.

Gill (sneakiefeline) · « **Reply #33 on:** November 14, 2007, 14:40:43 PM »

hmmmm if he was too angry with them and no probs eslewhere then i personally would be a bit suspicious of how they handled him

chrisleitz · « **Reply #32 on:** November 14, 2007, 14:37:51 PM »

Lynn and Susanne,
thanks for that. I have checked with the only other vet in my area as to how much it would have costs me, and it would have been £150 cheaper.

The other thing that got me annoyed is that, as Buddie is 11 1/2, I wanted him to have the pre-op bloods for obvious reasons. When I picked him up, the vet told me that they only manged to take his bloods once he HAD been anaethetised, as he was 'too angy' with them to let them near him. It seems to be that defeats the object a bit.

He is not an angry cat type and my old vet never had any issues with that.
Shame I don't have much choice here where I live, unless it involves driving a fair distance.

Ela · « **Reply #31 on:** November 14, 2007, 13:35:17 PM »

When people book a cat into our vet, they always send them out advice on when to stop feeding etc and also a form explaining about bloods and the reasons they suggest it. although it is up to the pet owner and they do not force it on anyone.

We always have bloods taken on middle age and above cats and younger ones if the vet suggests it.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #30 on:** November 14, 2007, 13:34:34 PM »

No Chris , there are not "set" guidelines for veterinary costs. Generally speaking you should expect prices to be fairly consistant within your local area as obviously most vets are wanting to be competative with one another.

I do know some vets who want to be more of a hi spec up to date type practice may have higher fee's in order to pay for their equipment (you'd be gobsmacked if you knew how much stuff costs and the maintenence contracts for the specialised stuff ) Some of these vets also will be aware that the less well off type of clientelle will not be able to afford their fee's but that may actually be a conscious decision with them i am sure to have a certain type of person coming through their door.

I think its very hard for the average "run of the mill" practice to stay bang up to date and cater for "all" , at the end of the day i suppose its our responsibility to find out roughly how much stuff is going to cost before any procedures are carried out, if your bill was way higher then you have every right to question it and i suppose if a vet was trying to charge you 20 quid say for a shot of bog standard cheap antibiotic then they wouldnt get away with that but i cant see you having any luck with the rcvs.

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #29 on:** November 14, 2007, 12:42:26 PM »

I think the answer to that is no, Chris

Quote

Veterinary surgeons should discuss treatment options and corresponding fee estimates with clients. Cost is often an issue with the treatment of an animal and if so, this should be recognised at the time of treatment rather than on presentation of the bill.

Whilst fees may vary between practices and may be a factor in choosing a practice, all the practice's facilities and services should be taken into consideration. For example whether the practice makes home visits routinely and what sort of arrangements are in place for 'out of hours' emergency calls.

In response to a request from a client or prospective client veterinary surgeons may also supply a price list of the medicines that may be dispensed for animals under their care.

In the event of a fee dispute, whether a client must pay a bill is a matter to be resolved between the parties or by the civil courts, not the RCVS.

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=90002&int1stParentNodeID=89655

chrisleitz · « **Reply #28 on:** November 14, 2007, 11:18:57 AM »

I have a slightly off-topic question, so my apologies but I would really like to find out if there are any guideline costs published anywhere. I am still in shock about the costs incurred for Buddie's dental and associated costs. Lynn, do you have an idea? Is it worth contacting The RCVS about this?

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #27 on:** November 14, 2007, 07:47:24 AM »

That is what worries me Lynn - while the rescues vets are incredibly cheap, it was their 'we wont knock an old cat out without them' attitude that bothered me - some people really couldnt afford that extra £45, and we all know that not everyone has pet insurance that is willing to pay for it, I am all for it, but I dont think it should be a mandatory thing for the people who can't afford it - I dont know if they would be in breach with that attitude. I also dont think I would have been as bothered if they hadn't done Tom less than 2 years ago without either!!
I dont think I have ever been charged a day rate for any ops, although I paid it once to keep Tom there for the day to get a urine sample. I dont remember any of the breakdowns saying that wa included, although it was at the emergency vets.

Team Svartalfheims · « **Reply #26 on:** November 13, 2007, 23:59:21 PM »

Quote from: lynn on November 13, 2007, 23:09:58 PM

(i better shut up or i'll never get another job if vets see this )

Come back to Bridge! Sandy seems to struggle greatly with a computer bless him never mind manage to surf the internet

He was looking ever so perplexed trying to sort me out a prescription for Milbemax on the system the other month.

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #25 on:** November 13, 2007, 23:42:31 PM »

Quote from: lynn on November 13, 2007, 23:09:58 PM

i better shut up or i'll never get another job if vets see this

If you apply for a job best not give Purrs as a reference!

Quote

trust and being happy with your vet is worth something in itself.

Definitely. When I hear some of the stories on here, esp regarding emergency vets, I'm so grateful for my vets. Although it can be a pain having the day to day stuff done by a series of interns, so I never get a regular vet, the practice is great and I know they will pull out all the stops when necessary, and being a referral and post graduate training centre is an advantage in an emergency situation as they have everything to hand. When Magpie died the vet who tended him (who he'd seen before) was lovely. Competent but caring as well (and rang the next day to see how I was). Several of the other vets, including the senior partner who doesn't do general practice any more as he's an eye spcialist, were called in to see him and I know no stone was left unturned. They were even going to give him an outrageously expensive new anti clotting drug that only a few vets in the country had access to, but he deteriorated too quickly for that. They were also very honest with me. The vet treating him rang me to ask whether I wanted him to be ressusitated should he stop breathing. I wasn't sure but said yes so long as she felt it wasn't futile and wasn't going to prolong his pain. When I took his body back the next day for cremation the senior vet was waiting for me and explained that he'd told her not to try too hard to ressusitate him as it wouldn't have been in his best interests. It's horrible when they don't make it, but it's a lot easier when you know that everything that was humanly possible was done and that there just wasn't anything else that could have helped.

But I'm going off topic a bit here! I suppose the bottom line is that I accept my vets aren't the cheapest but I know they won't cut corners and I know they will always give excellent care, and always put the animal first.

You want to see Magpie's invoice - it was about £2000 for 5 hours at the vets!

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2007, 23:09:58 PM »

No no i know you werent complaining and trust and being happy with your vet is worth something in itself.

regarding the hosp fee you are right it all needs to be broken down somehow but with what you were charged for the other stuff believe me it was more than covered.
The anaesthetic was rapinovet so he prob had a normal sedative (if they use that first) then onto the normal gas and oxygen, for that price he could have knocked out a big dog and still made profit

if it was around 6 mnths since you'd been seen then i would say the consult fee was fair enough in that case.

(i better shut up or i'll never get another job if vets see this

)

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #23 on:** November 13, 2007, 23:01:23 PM »

Quote from: lynn on November 13, 2007, 22:45:10 PM

susanne ive seen yours before and a few more like you besides and can never for the life of me work out their prices
1) how an earth can they charge a hosp fee for the day the animal is in for a procedure is beyond me

That bit actually makes sense to me. If it's broken down into every component, then there is surely going to be a charge for having him there from 9am to 5pm and keeping a close eye on him? I think they do look after them well. I've heard other people say that they've collected cats from vets smelling of urine etc - I think they always clean them up if they do a wee coming around from the anaesthetic or anything like that. So I don't begrudge them £25 for that.

No idea how much anaesthetic costs so can't really say about that. Trying to think what I paid for Mosi's anaesthetic when he had his op but cant remember whether it was the same or less (I'm guessing Jaffa might have had a different anaesthetic because he's older?)

He did have the actual dental about 6 months after his previous consultation so hadn't been seen for a while (but I was a bit surprised about that as it had already been recommended he have a dental so it was just a consultation by the vet doing the procedure - who hadn't seen him before - on the day of the op. Post op check was free).

It was all paid for by petplan (minus excess) so it doesn't really bother me. My vets are very reasonable for things like boosters, neutering etc (when prices have been posted on here they're usually in the middle range) but I think they do charge a bit more for bigger procedures. I think that's because they are a referral vets mainly - I think that affects their prices on general surgery too (they've got to pay for all that expensive equipment somehow!). They may be pricey but I'm very happy with the care they provide and the fact that they do their own out of hours service, so if it's an emergency I still just have to drive to the surgery 5 mins away, no driving to the nearest Vets Now or suchlike! And no transferring them to general vet in the morning. Magpie got excellent care when he was ill so I'm prepared to pay higher prices for some things (esp as I have insurance) in order to get that care.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #22 on:** November 13, 2007, 22:45:10 PM »

maddiesmum that is much more like the costs you would prob incur up here also, although you may have been a wee bit more for the set up of the iv fluids.

susanne ive seen yours before and a few more like you besides and can never for the life of me work out their prices
1) how an earth can they charge a hosp fee for the day the animal is in for a procedure is beyond me
2) 100 quid (not including rapinovet) for the ga is total daylight robbery
3) consultation ok if you hadnt been seen for a while, however if you'd been seen recent to that time and booked in for the dental then i'd not be willing to pay that 1st consult charge.

(i know this was historic for you)

Maddiesmum · « **Reply #21 on:** November 13, 2007, 20:34:38 PM »

I just got my cat back from his op and the total cost was £136.40 broken down as follows:

1 preop biochem profile £19.95
1 set up intra operative fluids £14.81
1 cat dental (grade I) including ga £79.08
0.35 Convenia £12.14
1 x 500ml unit/bag harmans sol £10.03

He was also sent home with four pouches of chicken and rice recovery food and two tins of convalescence food for which there was no charge and his follow up on Friday is free too.

I am well impressed

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #20 on:** November 13, 2007, 20:24:34 PM »

I've just found the invoice from Jaffa's dental. It was £379. This is how it was broken down

GA Medium procedure - £100.00
Lab In House - Biochemistry - £45.00
Lab In House - Haematology - £25.00
Intravenous Setup - £40.00
Hosp Cat per day - £25.00
1st Consultation - £20.00
Dental Scaling & Extraction of 2 Teeth - £50.00
Inject Synulox RTU Injection - £4.35
Dispense Synulox 50mg Tablets (18.00 Tabs) - £11.76
Rapinovet 20ml 10 - £1.82

Total goods & services - £322.93
VAT - £56.53
Total Amt - £379.46

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #19 on:** November 13, 2007, 20:11:20 PM »

Quote

but I know my neighbour generally opts out of the pre-op bloods due to the cost (he is a pensioner, and my vets charge around £37 for the bloods) so I wonder how many people like that there are

A huge amount of people is the answer desley !

where i worked was not far location wise from the pdsa so as you may imagine we got alot of people who just didnt make it to qualify for there, or folk who qualified off and on depending on the status of their benefits etc and nearly always the costs involved were asked and considered long long before the need or benefit to the animal. (we had some normal wealth and well off clients aswell thank god as struggling against what you'd love to be able to do versus what they are prepared or able to pay for is actually extremely depressing and actually weary) Oddly enough for us it was the charity cats who often got what was needed whatever the costs (sometimes far to much to opposite way which i've talked of before)

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #18 on:** November 13, 2007, 19:32:44 PM »

I would like to point out that I have no issues with either, but I know my neighbour generally opts out of the pre-op bloods due to the cost (he is a pensioner, and my vets charge around £37 for the bloods), so I wonder how many people like that there are. My vets used to have a sign up saying they only use Rapinovet, so at least that is one good thing for people who dont do anything else.
I checked the estimate earlier, and the dental + meds is £65, with the other £45 being the bloods, drip. I think it is a good price, my last proper dental one on of mine cost £98, I think Pebbles had 4 teeth out, but she didnt' have bloods due to it not being so long after them, and my vet didn't suggest a drip, although she did for her amputation.

Millys Mum · « **Reply #17 on:** November 13, 2007, 19:24:03 PM »

My vets take the pre op bloods and fluids on a case by case basis but strongly reccomend it when they believe its needed. They use Rapinovet for all procedures so people have no choice in that

I went for an interview at another practice and i was really shocked at the attitude, they used the cheapest anaestethic <sp> and said most customers took that option as they only told them it was cheaper but not that its less pleasant/safe for the animal

They didnt recommend bloods either

The VN showing me around sniffed a urine sample whilst i was there and said i wont bother running that, bet they didnt cut the cost for customer!
Oh and another ate sweets while helping the vet stitch up a dog

Sorry i digress

Michelle (furbabystar) · « **Reply #16 on:** November 13, 2007, 11:11:48 AM »

That price is actually very good for what it includes.

When it comes to an oldie my opinion is to do as much as you can to try and make the Op safe.
I would only put an Oldie through an Op is it was 100% necessary

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #15 on:** November 13, 2007, 10:49:55 AM »

I think if push came to shove desley i actually wonder if the vet would then be in breach of preventing pain etc in the animal and if they can legally say its either all or nothing, certainly interesting but i dont believe they could but im not sure.

My way of thinking a vet who does that is only wanting to have the well off clientelle so prob isnt concerned about losing that customers to a different practice

Dawn (DiddyDawn) · « **Reply #14 on:** November 13, 2007, 10:16:47 AM »

I usually follow the vets advice when I have oldies in. Freddie had all the bloods done etc and also Charlotte before her op, I think for an extra few quid, it's better to be safe than sorry and with the rescue cats you really don't know the history of them so I think it's better to err on the side of caution.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #13 on:** November 13, 2007, 08:20:22 AM »

Lynn brought up the other thing that I forgot yesterday - in George's (RIP) case, his liver values were so high that if he had come through the dental, he would have only had weeks left to live, what is the point in putting him through the pain of an op? Add to the fact that some people only take their cats when they have something like this, so it might pick up on things - my neighbour had a dental done on their cat, and ignored my vets advice to have pre-op bloods (my vet only advises, they dont insist), and she did end up with untreated kidney probs, that might have been picked up earlier (although he doesnt' believe in euthanasia, so might not have done anything different(. I personally would have both done, but I just worry aobut the people who can't afford them both, if the vets refuse point blank to do it, then the animal could suffer.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2007, 23:14:28 PM »

break the costs down

pre ga bloods
GA
IVFT
Dental
antibiotic/painkilling injections
+ any post op medication to go home with

I would imagine you'd find the ga & ivft more expensive than the actual process of removing a couple of teeth (plus were they going to scale the others whilst rollo is under ?)

Rosella moggy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2007, 23:09:03 PM »

Well what do I know except the price quoted doesn't seem bad. I think I recall a thread about cost of dentals sometime ago as I think Freddie's dental was pretty good value compared to others. OK he had alot of teeth extracted but I don't think the number of extractions influences the price that much.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2007, 23:05:48 PM »

Mosi was what would be classed as emergency surgery for FB susanne so because he is such a young cat and his complaint was not through any illness then i can see why bloods wouldnt have been done. However you might have been offered them (i used might instead of should to avoid any arguments) just as i believe neuters should be given the option.

However he was under full blown ga with entry into the abdominal cavity and quite possibly surgery on his intestines so I consider fluids necessary to cover the actual fluid loss which is increased by ga, further more if you are entering abdomen by the way of mid line exploratory laparotomy and physically guddling through this innards looking for someting (you are exposing massive surface area mucuous membrane lining to the open air where you will get rapid evaporation if you like of fluid that the body needs to and will replace) then of course the shock of all this trauma (also ga does anyway) decreases the BP and if he had the intestines operated on this would have incurred further blood loss via bleeding and further shock to the system of course.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2007, 22:58:39 PM »

MMMMmmmm difficult one this really.

I sort of agree fluids is more important if you had to choose one or the other, reason for this well if the bloods were a tiny bit "iffy" then you would then opt for ivft so therefor just chucking all animals onto ivft whilst under an anaesthetic is no bad thing.

On the other hand i am with desley for the reasons of I am against putting animals through what i deem to be pointless or unecessary procedures if they are on the verge of packing up anyway. Also another reason is if they were moderately affected by eg CRF then i believe appropriate steps should be taken regarding diet and any possible drugs for the condtion and not just deal with the problem in hand at that specific time and not something that may be lurking in the background.

In the case of rollo who i know nothing about except for what i have read tonight on the rimadyl thread and this one I personally would have gone for bloods and providing they were not too bad gone for the ivft (esp with the body condtion description) and had the teeth out because they are causing significant discomfort to warrant needing painkillers that may possibly themselves not be helpful on internal organs.

I think owners should be made aware of all the pros and cons and given the choice as it is their pet and their money, however I can think of many situations and "client type" where it would be easier to insist because you know its most certainly in the animals best interest.

Then of course you have the argument well what if you have NO money but the animal really needs a surgery to eliminate pain etc...whats best, leave the animal because bloods and fluids is out of the question or just go for the most basic minimal treatment to aleviate the cause of the problem , see it just gets so complicated and it will always be the case of "in the ideal world where money is no object" (If an animal is fully insured then i advocate absolutely everything)

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2007, 22:56:24 PM »

I think they always have a drip at my vets. Even Mosi had a drip when he had his op a couple of months ago and he's not yet 2 (but he didn't have blood tests. At least I don't think he did). Personally, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and am prepared to pay for that (esp as the insurance company usually pays!). I can understand that it might put some people off, but I can also understand the vets desire to do everything they can to minimise complications and to cover themselves if something does go wrong.

I'd hate for something to go wrong and to think that a drip or pre op bloods might have prevented it, and I think most people would hate that scenario too.

That estimate sound pretty cheap to me - Jaffa's dental was nearly £400! And that was for 2 teeth out. The extractions were the cheapest part of the whole thing (the most expensive thing being the anaesthetic).

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2007, 22:18:43 PM »

Gill, pre op bloods can help - the one and only foster I have lost had really bad teeth, and was very thin, so we knew there was something wrong with him, but it got to the stage he was digging food out of his teeth, so we had no option and his pre-op bloods showed his liver values were sky high, if the vet had given him an anaesthetic, it probably would have killed him - and while he was pts, at least we knew there was an issue, and he was able to be held and go with someone rather than go on the table. I also dont know if it woudl have been a worse way to go.
They are Gill, but I still think that amount for effectively one tooth out is a lot.

Author Topic: Ops in oldies - opinions (Read 10273 times)