pedigree stud for domestic cat

[Christine (Blip)]

I have locked this.

Thanks, contributors, for much sound advice.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

No objection from me, Christine.

I think it's in danger of going round in circles even if it remains civil.  But I'll leave that decision to you - otherwise it might look like I just want the last word 

[Christine (Blip)]

I am considering locking this, on the grounds that excellent advice has already been given and things are (very predictably and quite understandably) going to get very heated.

Any objections, folks?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Regardless of papers, there are still fine looking cats languishing in shelters and being PTS all over the world so there is no need to breed any in my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion    A lot of people will agree with you. 

The majority of people who breed cats, whether they be pedigree or moggy, deliberately bred or accidentally bred, should not be breeding cats imo.  But it's also my opinion that it's those people who should be encouraged or forced to stop breeding. and not the smaller group of responsible breeders.  Most breed clubs take responsiblity for rehoming unwanted cats of that breed, but that relies on them being informed by an owner who can no longer keep the cat or by a rescue who takes in a cat.  It's also difficult where popular breeds such as persian, siamese are involved as their popularity results in lots of backyard breeders and kitten farms and subsequently a lot more abandoned cats.  It should be possible to tackle the unscrupulous breeders without preventing everyone from breeding and resulting in lots of beautiful breeds becoming extinct (or worse - left in the hands of backyard breeders  )

Instead of criticising breeders, I prefer to promote early spay and neutering as I think that is the only thing that will have any effect on the number of unwanted litters.  I really wish this would take off over here.  FAB promote it and there is some group - Cat alliance or something? - that has lots of member organisations and is pro early neuter.  But I think it will take the RCVS to encourage it when training vets before it becomes common.

[Mark]

The problem is who do you fine?  The owner of the female who has kittens while the owner of the male cat gets off scott free because no-one can prove who that is?

Look how many pedigrees are in shelters.

Not all cats described as a pedigree are pedigrees.  Lots of shelters describe cats as pedigrees to increase their chances of getting a home when they are 100% moggy.  Without papers, there's no proving any cat is a pedigree.  Or that any particular pedgree came from a responsible breeder and not a kitten farm.

Regardless of papers, there are still fine looking cats languishing in shelters and being PTS all over the world so there is no need to breed any in my opinion.

[Mark]

They could have a reward system for people that shop neighbours. Sounds a bit extreme but extreme times.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I think it would be impossible to police - who is going to go around every house and check whether they have a cat, entire or otherwise?

[blackcat]

I'd be fining anyone with an entire cat over the age of, say 7 months who was not a registered breeder. REgistered breeders would be required to keep records of litter numbers and disposal and proof of death if kittens die. It would be incredibly hard to police, however, as who could prove a cat was not just a stray that was hanging around the house - that is a line I have successfully used on past landlords ...

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

The problem is who do you fine?  The owner of the female who has kittens while the owner of the male cat gets off scott free because no-one can prove who that is?

Look how many pedigrees are in shelters.

Not all cats described as a pedigree are pedigrees.  Lots of shelters describe cats as pedigrees to increase their chances of getting a home when they are 100% moggy.  Without papers, there's no proving any cat is a pedigree.  Or that any particular pedgree came from a responsible breeder and not a kitten farm.

[Mark]

The irresponsible are already underground to some extent but yes I think it would drive more down there.

I would like to see all breeders licenced too but they would need to be effective monitoring and of course what happens to the ones that get caught....................you know with a number of adult cats and numerous kittens?

A certain organization sent in to get rid of/pts the lot?

Its something that would need very very careful thought, I think and sadly not easy.

If there was a huge fine per offence, I think it would deter them as long as it was policed and enforced. Who then would risk a £5,000 fine for a £50 kitten?

[blackcat]

as you all know, Smidgen is an abyssinian cross kitten. He is the result of miscegenation between his mother (a queen who, the owners discovered, shows no sign of oestrus until confronted with an entire male) and a local barn cat. His mother was speyed a week after Smidgen came home with me. No breeder of any repute whatsoever would allow their stud to be bred to any old moggie, if only because of the risk of disease ruiining the stud's career. No breeder of any repute would allow her queen to breed indiscriminately. The whole idea is appalling.

[COSMIC CREEPERS]

well , heres my opinion - i have a spayed moggy and a spayed pedigree persian
i also have a ragdoll show/breed - we are doing really well at shows and i have joined the brcc and i intend to breed to get more mitted raggy cats on the show bench as there is not a lot of mitteds . i am attending a seminar this week on breeding i have been reserching for a yr and half now and met lots of breeders and show people , i have decided to breed but would not go into it lightly and also would not do it just to have a littler , i do not intend to make money and will probably loose money , all my kittens will go to show nuter or pet nuter homes

[Mark]

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a responsible breeder. I also think anyone that buys a pedigree just adds to the problem, regardless of how they try to paint it.

Look how many pedigrees are in shelters.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Although I support the idea of a licence for breeders, the problem is that that would be more of a problem for the responsible breeders than for the backyard breeders who are in it for profit and cut corners to make money.  The backyard breeders could afford to buy a licence and would, probably, pass any inspection so long as there were no obviously sick cats and the premises were clean.  It's possible that licensing could stop the small, reputable hobby breeder from breeding and allow the kitten farms and backyard breeders to flourish.  And there will always be accidental pregnancies - sometimes through lack of knowledge about the importance of neutering and people not realising that females can become pregnant as young as 4 months - so I'm not sure how that would work. 

I reckon folk who advocate breeding willy nilly should spend a day at the likes of Paws Inn, reckon it'd be a bit of an eye opener

Indeed!  So often I hear people who want to breed their moggy justify it by saying that there isn't a problem in their area, or they have tried to adopt a kitten but no-one has kittens. Tbh, often it is just not realising the extent of the problem.  Most people are unaware that there are angels like Teresa, Dawn etc picking up the pieces when Joe Bloggs thinks it would be a good idea to let his cat have just one litter.  And then some of those kittens go on to have just one litter.... and so on.

ickle - one thing you could suggest to this person, or to anyone else wanting to do the same, is that she might neuter the kittens before they are rehomed (if she can find a vet to do it fairly early) or take a returnable deposit from prospective owners which will be returned when proof of neutering is received.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

The irresponsible are already underground to some extent but yes I think it would drive more down there.

I would like to see all breeders licenced too but they would need to be effective monitoring and of course what happens to the ones that get caught....................you know with a number of adult cats and numerous kittens?

A certain organization sent in to get rid of/pts the lot?

Its something that would need very very careful thought, I think and sadly not easy.

[Corporal Smokey]

If there was a licensing system, you could have forms and a yearly fee (which goes to rescues, obv  ), get checked out by your local CP/vet/similar and get some sort of reference. Helps rescues, helps prevent unwanted kitties. Simple.

Or would that push the irresponsible underground?

[carl (billy and baggys dad)]

I reckon folk who advocate breeding willy nilly should spend a day at the likes of Paws Inn, reckon it'd be a bit of an eye opener.

[ccmacey]

I was asked last week off a bloke that had cats, "do you have a litter tray".  

I dont understand people that dont understand cats but still have one, two.......

[Dawn F]

that's a good point about complications, my Star who is a rescue cat was left for two days in labour before her owner took her to the rspca to have a c section, once it was done they decided they couldn't afford to keep her and the four kittens, my gain obviously but she spent 5 months in a pen waiting for me to come along.  I am also worried about her cancer risk, I know Desley knows a lot about this and I don't, but my understanding is that as she was 3 before she was spayed she is at a higher risk of mammary cancer

[Corporal Smokey]

Sorry but I'm with the "too many kittens in rescue" brigade too. IMHO breeders should be licenced. Not just for pedigree but moggie breeders too. My main reason for this isn't just overpopulation but also complications.

You've bred cats before Ickle so I'm certainly not trying to tell you something you don't already know and again, I'm just engaging in debate (although everyone seems on the same side) so feel free to argue, but to mr/mrs average who've never bred before, what happens if their cat has problems with the birth? What happened if she needed a c-section in the middle of the night? What if the kittens have problems? I think this is a huge responibility.

I think my point is if you were having a baby, whether planned or unplanned, you'd go to classes, practise stuff and get ready in every way possible. I'm not sure if everyone who breeds their cat would go to the same lengths but you're still bringing life into the world. If you are prepared for all instances, there's no reason you couldn't get a licence but it may help to stop all the bundles of fluff we see week in week out that aren't wanted.

[ccmacey]

When my rabbit had babies I started using a rabbit forum to get a bit more info and lots of peeps on there said they breed their rabbits and they didnt see anything wrong with it. 

[Dawn F]

I suppose as Gill said the beginnings of this site are in rescue and although I am involved only in a very, very small way once you have seen the numbers of cats involved a person wouldn't ever dream of having a litter -  if you look on the rescue and rehoming section you will how hard it is for people on the front line trying to find homes for these cats and lead anything like a normal life.   Anyway I hope the lady in question is put off the idea and nobody with a stud male comes forward to help!

[ccmacey]

The "lady" must be mad, she would be paying more for the ped cats time and wouldnt make it back off the kittens anyways- just a thought.

I dont think its ok to breed with how many cats are needing homes in rescue. But obviously this is the reason why.

Some people just dont understand these forums and think this is what they are all about.  

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Ummmmmmmmm sounds like the boat needs rocking badly 

[Dawn F]

that's interesting ickle, is it a pedigree site?

[Cheesecat]

Wondering which other forum...

I hate to say, but that does seem very irresponsible.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Just a thought Ickle, maybe you could post this thread on the other ummmmmm forum for educational purposes   

[Cheesecat]

My opinion - I said "It is totally unacceptable" not out of the opinion that they would only be half pedigree, but the point that its just more unwanted kittens in the world. Even if there were people who would say they'd want the kittens - they are potential owners who could have gone and saved some poor babies from a shelter.

I don't have  aproblem with people who breed/buy pedigree kittens (properly), I appreciate that people do like to have pedigree kitties, but I definitely would not let any of my cats breed, with a pedigree or not as I don't want to add to the problem, and at the end of the day the cats will still me moggies regardless (nothing wrong with that but what would be the difference in those to all the other kittens in rescue?)

If you really like the idea of having kittens in the house, perhaps offer to foster some for a local rescue  

[Sabrina (Auferstehen)]

Fostering sounds like the ideal alternative but I personally would find it impossible to let the kittens go as would have bonded too much, I'd end up being a crazy cat lady with hundreds of cats.

That's what OH's are for. Mine reminds me weekly that the foster kittens are not staying with us forever.

We'll see how I do when they get homes, we can place bets on how long I cry for(the winner can get something horribly bad for them).

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I think you will find Purrs almost united on this Ickle cos we were founded by people who all came from a rescue site and although a number of us have pedigrees and some are breeders, they are in the minority and the main thrust of the site is to help people understand what rescue is all about , help with problems with cats and help cats to find homes.

We also try to help as much as we can, rescues who are represented on Purrs and I am sure you have seen the posts from Teresa at Paws Inn, Dawn from Flintshire ferals, Lesley from 9 lives or is that 8 grrrrrr, Ron from Brighton, Sharon and friends from Canterbury CP, Angie from Coventry, Desley from Cat Action Trust I think, Ela from Chesterfield CP and apologies to any others I have forgotten at present.

United we stand cos we know that currently there is a kitten explosion all over the country and also there are cats being thrown out of their homes for one excuse reason or another.

So the base line is , no additional kittens are needed.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Would just like to say this is ONLY a DEBATE and one can paly devils advocate in debates

Indeed one can!    But this particular debate tends to get quite heated on here due to the rescue peeps who deal first hand with the consequences of this kind of thing.  There are just too many unwanted moggies out there to justify delilberately producing more.

[Tiggy's Mum]

There are way too many cats and kittens needing homes as it is, remember every old cat needing a home was a kitten once and could well have been the product of someone who wanted their cat to have 'just one litter'.  Fostering sounds like the ideal alternative but I personally would find it impossible to let the kittens go as would have bonded too much, I'd end up being a crazy cat lady with hundreds of cats.

[dolcetta46]

It's not that I think all the kittens coming into this world should be pedigrees, but one can start thinking about something like this once there is no longer any baby moggies needing home in rescue homes, shelters and streets.

[Sabrina (Auferstehen)]

In laws begged us to breed Lirael as they would have taken a kitten or two (she’s a pure Burmese). However there was no way I was having more monsters running around (I love her dearly but she is trouble on 4 paws).

We thought Smoke may have been pregnant when we adopted her but the vet said no and about a week later she started calling.

Which is the worst sound known to mankind, if you wish to sleep at night do not let your cat come into heat! We took her in when she seemed to calm down to get her spayed and it was the best thing we ever did.

I’m much happier with foster kittens in the house, it’s like babysitting and eventually they’ll go to a happy home and we’ll have peace in the house until the next foster cats come.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I agree , I think we know the outcome of this and also agree please keep this thread nice.

I do not think there should be unlicenced breeding and do not agree with allowing a cat to have one litter. There is no reason for doing this as so many cats need homes already. A reputable pedigree breeder would not allow this to happen so you can be sure that if you found somone to particpate they are not a good breeder, there maybe something wrong with the cat which can be passed on and they are going to take you you for a ride with the amount they charge.

Please do not even consider this a little bit.

[snarf]

hey

out of interest why do you want her to have one litter?

i personally wouldnt go down that route- there are health implications (which someone more knowledgable will no doubt list). i think youd struggle to find a stud cat. i think they lead happier less stressful lives neutered plus id feel like i was pimping my cat out!  and there are so many adult cats without homes, every litter adds to the problem as they take homes that may have gone to an older cat

Lecture over now  

[Desley (booktigger)]

as the others have said, decent breeders would be against this. There is also the risk to your cats health by having just one litter, and the fact that it really isn't necessary for the cats sake, in fact, it could be worse for them having to look after them for 8 weeks and then them be rehomed. Add that to the fact that this year has been really bad for rescues, and we have had a lot of people who have let their cat have 'just one litter' and then had to call in a rescue as they couldnt find homes, so I suspect others all around the country are the same. I think Susannes suggestion of fostering for a local rescue is the best one, we are all crying out for help, and the more people that do, the more cats can be saved.

[Dawn F]

I'd be amazed if a decent breeder would let someone in this situation use a stud like this and imo there are enough moggies hanging around rescue centres

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I think I know what the result of this will be!  Please try to keep it nice everyone   

Apart from the obvious reasons, one thing to consider carefully is that no reputable owner of a pedigree stud will allow their cat to mate with a non pedigree.  So anyone who would agree to such an arrangement is not someone I would trust anyway.  It's likely to be backyard breeders who would agree to such an arrangement.

Unfortunately cat shelters are full of the results from 'just one litter' matings, so I would advise you to get your girl spayed without her having any babies, ickle.  If you want to experience the joy of kittens, how about fostering for a local rescue?

[No Name]

I saw a thread ( as it tuned out on another forum ) basically a lady had a non pedigree cat and wanted her to have kittens but didnt want her to just take her chances with the 'street lads'.


I am interested as I have a non pedigree cat whom I plan to have spayed but before I do I would lovwe to have kittens from her just once. BUT she is an indoor cat and is not allowed to wander, so unless she excapes there is no chance that she will have a litter.
Is it so wrong?

or
does it go against all ethics of cat breeding.

BTW I am not saying I am going to do this I was just thinking is all

Ive added a poll but would like your written opinions in this debat too:Luv: