PETA - There's no such thing as a responsible breeder

[Ela]

I also don't think someone has to be in rescue to know the heartache...

I have to disagree with that. Until I was involved in rescue I thought I knew a lot about cats and their needs.  I now know I knew very little. It really is only when you are in rescue that you get a feel for the enormity of it all. I know we post some of the problems on here but that is a very small % of what we have to deal with in reality. Up to 30 calls a day  also often in the night, many of them too heartbreaking to tell. I simply would not have the time to tell you each sad tale that I constantly told about and that we have to deal with on a daily basis.

I know I see what others have posted on here sometimes and although it makes me sad I know that the sadness is felt 100 fold by the person actually dealing with the situation and the feeling of helplessness when you have no room. I think it is impossible to know without actually dealing with it constantly.

I would also like to add that even many of our own members have no idea what we have to deal with. Even some of the fosterers have no idea  of the problems that the more experienced fosterers deal with on a daily basis.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

You're right ela, not all breeders are responsible.  Anyone who deliberately allows a cat to have kittens could be called a "breeder" (regardless of whether it's pedigrees or moggies they're breeding) and they range from the highly responsible and caring to those who couldn't give a toss about anything except for how much they can sell them for on the site that one chews    Plus a whole load in between.  I doubt anyone on here would disagree that the majority should be stopped.  But doing that is not easy.  There are guidelines that good pedigree breeders will follow, but there's no obligation for anyone to follow them.  But we have to blame the purchasers as well as the breeders.  Bad breeders wouldn't stay in business if those who bought from them put a bit more effort into finding out what they should look for in a breeder and didn't buy from the obvious byb's.  For every irresponsible breeder out there there's a prospective owner happy to buy from them.

Yes, Dawn - some people can be persuaded to go for an older cat but a lot will not.  A work colleague of mine has just bought a house and she is going to get 2 kittens soon.  I've actually told her that there are lots of older cats needing homes and perhaps an adult cat would be better (less damage to her new house!) but she's adamant she wants kittens to watch them grow up.  She will be a good owner, will get them neutered etc. but like so many people she just really wants kittens. 

On a more positive note, another colleague got 2 adult cats from a rescue about a year ago.  His wife wanted a kitten but wasn't set on it so when I pointed out there were so many adults that were difficult to rehome and gave him a list of local rescues from catchat, he contacted one of them and rehomed 2 adult cats instead.

[Ela]

if it were allowed to rehome outside catchment areas

We are if a suitable cat cannot be found locally howeverm  we always do our own home visits visits and some places are just too far.

[Ela]

so in my ideal world perhaps no breeding should be allowed, some sort of contraceptive given via food etc to the ferals and only have the likes of the reponsible legal breeders producing kittens

Why should the ferals not be spayed and given the chance of a healthy life, not fair just to give contreception.

The breeders now are supposed to be responsible however we all know many aren't.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

  If there are no kittens, a lot of people are more likely to go for an older cat be it moggy or otherwise. 

But you know it wouldn't work like that.  If there are no kittens it will create a black market in kittens and a climate in which the irresponsible breeders and kitten mills can charge ridiciulous sums of money for badly bred and reared kittens.
 Or in the case of feral cats it's simply because they have no owner and are not neutered - nature is going to take it's course.  .

I've had people who've been gently persuaded to take an older cat when kittens were short, it can be done.  Not everyone will go for it but if they love cats, they sometimes can be persuaded.  As regards to the feral cats, all of these adults or the previous generations have been "someone's" cat, you will surprisingly find alot of the adults when caught are actually tame but the kittens are wild.  So again, if the "owner" had had them spayed, they might still have had a home but because they got pregnant they got slung out.

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

Like I said, I'll agree to disagree. This debate can go on forever and ultimately we all would like to see the same thing happen, responsible ownership.

Like Susanne says, we can't control the world so there will always be a problem because not everyone is like the many members on this forum who actually do care and SUPPORT the rescues.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I also don't think someone has to be in rescue to know the heartache...

If this was the case, people would understand why sometimes "healthy" cats and kittens have to be euthanised because there was nowhere for them go.  I remember threads on CC where peeps were kicking off about certain rescues doing this.  I for one, doing what I do fully understand why this sometimes has to happen.  I also remember threads where the threat of pts was on cats if nowhere is found for them, how many people used to say on there "please don't let them put to sleep".  If there's nowhere for them, what can we do????  We then have it on our conscience that we have "allowed" these cats to be put to sleep because we couldn't take them.  We have to lie there day and night wondering where the next lot can go, whether to abort a pregnant female no matter how far gone she is, because there's nowhere for the kittens.......sorry, to know the full extent, you have to be in the middle of it.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

  If there are no kittens, a lot of people are more likely to go for an older cat be it moggy or otherwise. 

But you know it wouldn't work like that.  If there are no kittens it will create a black market in kittens and a climate in which the irresponsible breeders and kitten mills can charge ridiciulous sums of money for badly bred and reared kittens.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, as we all end up having to do every time this debate comes up.  I think all of us who have been around here for any length of time do realise the extent of the problem and the lengths to which people like yourself and Teresa go to, emotionally and financially, to save as many little ones as you can.  But few of these are kittens and cats that were bred by responsible breeders.  Not saying none of them are pedigrees, but whether pedigree or non pedigree, the majority are not from responsible breeders.  In almost every case it's a cat/kitten that was bred out of laziness, greed or ignorance and I think we all agree that that they should not have been bred in the first place.  Or in the case of feral cats it's simply because they have no owner and are not neutered - nature is going to take it's course.  If responsible breeders stopped tomorrow I doubt you would notice any difference, tbh, because all the other "breeders" would still be out there.

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

I don't believe anyone on this thread has said its ok to breed indiscriminately.

I agree (despite you and T being in rescue) that repsonsible breeding is a must. I also know many breeders who want to be licenced and follow a standard and can be regulated to ensure it remains controlled.

I also don't think someone has to be in rescue to know the heartache...

I'll just have to agree to disagree on this point Dawn, sorry.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Until someone is involved in rescue, they haven't got a clue what we go through day in, and day out because of all the "idiot" people who just breed because they think kittens are cute        You've got the emotional side to things and me and T were in tears constantly over these poor little one's in Manchester, we couldn't just go home and leave them........we have to carry on, all because some idiot thought the female was a good ratter    Chances are this was a sweet little kitten that turned up and because she did a good job, they've left her to it and her babies the same.  She's had numerous litters and yes, some have survived, but where are the others.......probably splattered on the road somewhere    I love cats as much as anyone but regardless of anything, they should be neutered.  They will not die out, there are way too many of them and if they became extremely hard to get hold of, maybe the ferals kittens will get a chance at some homes instead of having to live on the streets, in the cold, getting kicked and stones being thrown at them.  The other side we have to deal with in all this is the expense........going back and to to to do these rescues is a real drain on resources which is money that could be used to help others in my area.   So anyone who agrees with breeding, think of all the other little one's that are left on the street because of it and all the one's that are stuck in a pen for months, possibly years on end.  If there are no kittens, a lot of people are more likely to go for an older cat be it moggy or otherwise.  What we deal with is all a consequence of breeding  If they feel a "need" to breed, they should be monitored and licensed!!

[JackSpratt]

Controlled breeding is definately necessary - pedigree or moggy. Otherwise, there just aren't enough homes to go round!

[Sarah (seldom_use)]

Let's also remember that its a bit of a general statement saying that moggies lose out on a home because someone wants to home a pedigree. Often people who want pedigrees will not be swayed from what they want and will not consider a moggie at all. So the issue of losing a home to pedigree is not a really an issue. That home was never one for them in the first place.

I agree Ruth.

Lynn - meant to add, Amy was GORGEOUS

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

Susanne agree wholeheartedly. Have little time for PETA. And I say this from experience of dealing with them rather than just reading about them or responding to one of their campaigns.

I think there are better ways to campaign peacefully and without confrontation like the WSPA do, rather than what PETA does.

As for breeders, I see no issue with responsible breeders, in fact will support those I know as their primary concern is the cats, not money. They do it for the love of the breed and wanting to keep the blood lines pure so that the breed does not become extinct due to over engineering by backyard or unscrupulous (sp?) breeders who do it solely for the money.  If there is danger that a cat could become ill they would rather save the cat than have a litter.

Let's also remember that its a bit of a general statement saying that moggies lose out on a home because someone wants to home a pedigree. Often people who want pedigrees will not be swayed from what they want and will not consider a moggie at all. So the issue of losing a home to pedigree is not a really an issue. That home was never one for them in the first place.

[Sarah (seldom_use)]

Lynn I haven't spoken to Kelly, will PM her, but I do regularly look at their rehoming forum but theres been no suitable cats as of yet.

Some need to be rehomed with other cats and some are outdoor only. I would love to rehome so will defo speak to Kelly.

[MBll]

if only it were that easy.

Ok so wales might be a bit hard getting there but  cupar  would be easly ...would it not?

[CurlyCatz]

sarah if you were happy to travel then have you spoken to kelly who is involved with the raggie rescue (remember the gorgeous amy)

Another point i was thinking of today was if no cats were ever bred, ped or moggie and the only ones that managed to breed were ferals who hadnt been caught, can you imagine the health of them..i mean just thinking of some of what dawn has told us about her colonys she deals with as they are very interbred..Thinking of that then actually i think cats/kittens for the type of responsible breeder suzanne was meaning is actually the better choice.

so in my ideal world perhaps no breeding should be allowed, some sort of contraceptive given via food etc to the ferals and only have the likes of the reponsible legal breeders producing kittens.

[Sarah (seldom_use)]

Many tears in wales has a persian & do rehome outside their area they have even rehomed up to oban


So there is a ragdoll in cupar & persian in wales ...take ya pick lol

if only it were that easy.

[JackSpratt]

Afraid I don't have much time for PETA.  Remember they dont approve of cats being kept as pets.

Bless 'em! It's a bit too late to reverse what humans have done with regards to domesticating our feline counterparts!

Anyway, I have to say, of course there are responsible breeders that leave a decent amount of time between their (pedigree) female having litters and ensure decent homes for their offspring.

However, it has to be said that because of the thousands of moggies already needing homes, each pedigree kitten born is potentially taking a home up that could've been a rescue cats. And although I understand what's being said about people liking specific breeds, I think most people have gone against that at some point by falling for an unlikely moggy!

A lot of pedigrees are "engineered" by humans anyway, so really the breeds that are dying out are ones that people have made for their own aesthetic pleasure. (Sorry, anyone who owns a pedigree! Just so you know, I'm not anti pedigree cats; just the fact that humans dabble to get what they want so much!)

[MBll]

Many tears in wales has a persian & do rehome outside their area they have even rehomed up to oban


So there is a ragdoll in cupar & persian in wales ...take ya pick lol

[Sarah (seldom_use)]

it is a shame ela, i would have been happy to travel down south for a rescue raggie if it were allowed to rehome outside catchment areas

[Ela]

it is just rare to come by a ragdoll in rescue is my point

Shame you do not live here, I have over the years been offered loads.

[Sarah (seldom_use)]

As some of you may know, I am hoping to get a ragdoll cat at some point.

I have went to all my local rescue centres (usually visit weekly) to check if any persian/ragdolls are in. I was told by an SSPCA inspector that I would be better off buying a pedigree kitten because they hardly ever get pedigrees in. This is around the Glasgow area.

Sorry to highjack this thread.  Sarah theres other rescues outside glasgow why stick to 1 area when looking for a ragdoll?  Cupar Animal Trust Shelter has a 3 year old ragdoll still looking for a home

raties - have never heard of the centre. i know on here there are a couple of girls involved in the UKRR (sp?) however most are for homing in england.

i am not sticking to the one place, it is just rare to come by a ragdoll in rescue in and around my area is my point.

[MBll]

Yeah ela iv even talked to her lol 

[Ela]

Cupar Animal Trust Shelter

I have known Janeen for years (well in the known through Cyberspace)

[MBll]

As some of you may know, I am hoping to get a ragdoll cat at some point.

I have went to all my local rescue centres (usually visit weekly) to check if any persian/ragdolls are in. I was told by an SSPCA inspector that I would be better off buying a pedigree kitten because they hardly ever get pedigrees in. This is around the Glasgow area.

Sorry to highjack this thread.  Sarah theres other rescues outside glasgow why stick to 1 area when looking for a ragdoll?  Cupar Animal Trust Shelter has a 3 year old ragdoll still looking for a home

[Ela]

Sorry - that's just the way I feel about it.

You don't have to be sorry for your views as we are all entitled to our opinions and hopefully can quote them  without being confrontational. I am not in the least bit sorry about my views.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Afraid i don't have much time for PETA.  Remember they dont approve of cats being kept as pets.

No breed will ever die out. There will always be ones that "slip through the net".

How?  No way will I leave my beloved somalis in the hands of backyard breeders who don't give a toss about the breed or the health.  Neither will I allow the breed to die out, and I'm sure anyone who loves a particular breed will feel the same.  Imagine what sickly cross bred and in bred individuals would pass for somalis, or british short hair or siamese or whatever breed if their future was left to those that "slip through the net"!

I am going to disagree with most here as I dont see why I or any other responsible breeder or would be breeder, should have to pay the price for the huge proportion of lazy, greedy and irrsponsible cat owners who let their cats have kittens because they cant' be bothered to get their cats neutered, don't care and don't know why they should, or just want to make a buck.  They are the ones who should stop breeding, not those who go to great lengths to do it responsibly.  Yes it is selfish but I would find the world a teeny bit sadder if there were no somalis.  Theres too much of this kind of thing going on in the world - one group of people paying the price for another's irresponsibility.  If responsible breeders stopped breeding it would allow backyard breeders and kitten mills to flourish because there'd still be a demand for pedigree cats but nobody who really cared about the breeds would be doing any breeding.  If PETA and groups like that are so concerned about the overpopulation of cats they want to try being a bit more proactive in getting early spay and neuter to become the norm so that the idiots who don't bother to neuter find it difficult to get hold of anything other than a kitten that is already neutered.  That will have more effect than trying to get the small number of responsible breeders to stop.

N.B.  When I talk about responsible breeders I don't mean all breeders of pedigree cats.  Not all breeders of pedigrees are responsible and many should not be breeding, imo.

Sorry - that's just the way I feel about it.  If every single person really did neuter their cat we would have no cats left.  we rely on the fact that many "slip through the net".  For some breeds that would be disastrous.  Obviously there are way too many slipping through the net so at the moment there can be no justification for breeding non pedigrees (not because they're inferior, just because there are so many of every age and colour who are homeless), but I'd hate to see the good guys bite the dust because we, as a society, are failing to curb the bad guys.

[Ela]

to get registrations/licensing sorted out for all cats & dogs and have very strict rules. 

there are now rules but many don't take a blind bit of notice. I know of loads of malpractice by many different breeders (some well respected). I think I posted before about one who had 2 Jack Russels one had 2 pups and the other 10, the one who had 10 was epileptic, so what did she do? She swapped mums. with the full knowledge of her vet. That person has now just purchased (with the help of her multi millionairess mother) one of the largest 'reputable' kennels and catteries in the country. I know she intends to breed many different breeds of cats and dogs and at least one of the cats/kittens sells for at least £1000 each.

I will say one thing that annoys me is people who pay hundreds of pounds for a pedigree then ask me for a voucher, somehow it exasperates me, but through gritted teeth for the sake of the cat I take the details. I cannot understand however how they can take from a fund that is meant to help those who cannot afford it.
As we all know if you cannot afford to cover all the little ones needs  perhaps  you should not have bought it in the first place

[Sabrina (Auferstehen)]

As much as I'd love to have an Ocicat I'll probably never own one unless I rescue one of course. The breeders charge so much I couldn't afford one anyway.

Been thinking about contacting the Ocicat club to offer a foster home if they get any in this area, it would let me see if the breed is right for our house as well as helping out.

I wish they'd license or charge for someone to start breeding animals, but some would slip through.

Lirael (our Burmese) was from a breeder in North Yorkshire, she had cat flu when she we got her and I was told that they had taken her to the vets and had meds. When we took her to our vets they were so upset, she was sneezing and green stuff was flying from her nose (this was a few days after we got Lirael - I had to find a vet in our area).

I believe she has since stopped breeding cats. Thankfully.

[Sarah (seldom_use)]

As some of you may know, I am hoping to get a ragdoll cat at some point. I was also considering a Persian, both breeds I think would be excellent to own, because of the personalities.

I have went to all my local rescue centres (usually visit weekly) to check if any persian/ragdolls are in. I was told by an SSPCA inspector that I would be better off buying a pedigree kitten because they hardly ever get pedigrees in. This is around the Glasgow area. Also in my area, it is very rare that we get kittens in.

I have now contacted a breeder and am waiting for a kitten. This is not because as Mark suggested that I would like a new accessory, this is because I would love to have the experience and pleasure of owning the breed. I also have 3 moggie cats, and I adore them.

[CurlyCatz]

At the end of the day i think it is rediculous to say "no more breeding" as that is never going to happen in a million life times, so far better to concentrate making breeding a much harder thing to do, yes those in the think tanks need to get registrations/licensing sorted out for all cats & dogs and have very strict rules.  We're never going to get rid of what we have so we should put the energies into improving it.

[Ela]

Will check on the stats, but last time I read it, it was very low

If it is low then there is even more cause for concern.

]but only one ped[/quote]

I get some offered every week.

 

You can check for mammary tumours starting actually

Its dosen't even want to start, I feel it best to give a cat a the best possible chance to prevent.

Reputable breeders also dont let their cats have too many unbred seasons to reduce the risk of pyo

We have had kittens less than 6 months old  with pyo, in once case the vet found it on spaying and said had the kitten not gone in then, it would have been dead within weeks. Also you know yourself even on season increases the risk of mammary tumours by 10% and subsequent seasons by 10% each time.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Will check on the stats, but last time I read it, it was very low - we actually get very few peds in, we have had 4 'ped crosses' this year, but only one ped (and not sure if that was actually this year or the back end of last). You can check for mammary tumours starting actually, I wonder if breeders are the reason why it is one of the more 'common' cancers. Reputable breeders also dont let their cats have too many unbred seasons to reduce the risk of pyo, and also if they are concerned about the amount of 'hard' seasons, they will spay to prevent it.

[Ela]

Pedigrees account for such a small amount of the population that

I cannot say I don't agree with that fact as I have no idea of the statistics, but what I can say is that if true then an awful lot of the' small amount ' of  those adopted need to come into rescue often because they are simply not now wanted. If they were so cherished there would be no need for breed rescues and the 'normal' rescues would then perhaps be able to cope with the pedigrees that need to come in under sad circumstances.

not breeders, who (if responsible) check their cats to make sure they aren't going to pass on any illnesses, vacc, worm, de-flea and in some cases also neuter.

How much do breeders  love cats if they  knowingly put them at far greater risk of mammary tumours  and pyometra? They can't check for that.

[Mark]

No breed will ever die out. There will always be ones that "slip through the net". I remember quite a few years ago, there was a piece in the paper aroud the time of the Smirnoff ads where the cat goes out all night. It said everyone wanted a silver tabby and the other colours were missing out. I agree with PETA for the sake of the cats. I think some pedigrees are beautiful but often they are accessories for vain people. Its not an ideal world but while millions of cats are dying, I won't change my point of view.

[Desley (booktigger)]

i do think it would take an incredibly long time for the cat population in general to die out, but it wouldnt take all that long for certain breeds to die out.

[Ela]

if they all neutered cos there is no breeding then you cant think about breeding later!

The ultimate bottom line of this is no more cats!

That is never going to happen as there will always be irresponsible people and if I am honest (and possibly hated) I would not care if a breed did die out if it meant no more would suffer. We are offered just as many Birmans as other pedigrees.

[Ela]

I'm inclined to agree - but will probably be shot down in flames

Not by me you won't. I as indeed I expect are are many rescues asked every day to bring in pedigrees. They take the space that is needed by the 'moggies' who were possibly  born our of their owners ignorance. I cannot see how anyone who truly loves cats and knowing full well that there are rescues for that breed can allow their cat to breed. Also knowing that with each season the risk of mammary tumours increases along with the risk of pyometra.

[Desley (booktigger)]

i actually dont agree with PETA - if you look at some of the people who buy pedigrees, they wouldn't get a moggie instead - I can think of one person on here who has purely rescue pedigrees because she loves the breed and probably wouldn't have got a moggie instead. Pedigrees account for such a small amount of the population that it is actually irresponsible owners who allow cats to have 'just one litter', or dont care enough to get them spayed that are the real problem, not breeders, who (if responsible) check their cats to make sure they aren't going to pass on any illnesses, vacc, worm, de-flea and in some cases also neuter. I also wouldnt want to see certain breeds die out, especially the ones that have been around for 100's of years - I do think that a moratorium (sp?) on new breeds should be put into place though, we dont need new breeds that could take years to 'perfect' and therefore lots of pet quality ones, and I think there needs to be stricter rules on people who do breed, I am not sure we need the amount of breeders we have.

[blackcat]

I'm afraid I am with Gill here. We are all on this site because we love cats. If we neuter all pedigreed cats, and all domestic cats then we will lose the very thing we love. Gill's is a logical argument, however I would also be very sad to lose the moggy. I have had some wonderful moggies in my life. Perhaps a more moderate approach would see pedigree breeders limit their cats to a very few litters (say 2) before neutering and the suggestion of finding non-registered breeders severely is also a sound one. What we aim for here is to reduce the surplus of cats in the world and ensure they live happily. We do not want the world's only cats to be the ferals, as the limited supply of cats that resulted from a more properly managed regime would also result in a serious shortage of these latter (which is a good thing). So please, I know there are a  lot of people here with strong views about this, but a more moderate approach generally gains a better result in the long run.