Topic: Neutering age (Read 11293 times)

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #37 on:** July 10, 2007, 20:08:01 PM »

Quote from: Team Svartalfheim's on July 10, 2007, 18:01:59 PM

If I can persuade the vets to go for it I'll neuter all mine before they go to new homes as that way I don't need to spend 3 months worrying until I get the certificate of neutering through from owners.

If/when I breed somalis I intend to neuter all kittens before they go to new homes if I can find a vet who will do it. I'm rather hoping that early spay/neuter becomes a bit more commonplace in the future.

Here are a few articles about early spay/neuter for anyone who's interested

http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PedSpayNeuter.htm#Misconceptions_about_Pediatric_Spay/Neuter_

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Pages/Early_Age_Altering_Web.pdf

http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/olson/IVIS.pdf#search=%22Early%20spay-neuter%3A%20clinical%20considerations.%22

Beccles · « **Reply #36 on:** July 10, 2007, 19:39:16 PM »

Quote from: Millys Mum on July 10, 2007, 16:21:08 PM

Pinkbear, things can get missed in adults cats too, do a search for Menue and her lady bit that was floating around

Rebecca, nice to see you back

Hello there! I have been floating around... all got a bit hairy here but we're all basically still live and kicking, I am online when I can.

Bazsmum · « **Reply #35 on:** July 10, 2007, 19:26:16 PM »

My Little Maisey is getting neutered next Tuesday........she is 6 months old x

Team Svartalfheims · « **Reply #34 on:** July 10, 2007, 18:58:08 PM »

The contracts are legally binding though (people have taken owners to court and successfully repossessed cats as the contract was binding). Yes it's always the worry that they will move and not tell you etc. This is why I really like the idea of early neutering. Yes, you can withhold all the paperwork except the contract until you get proof from the vet.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #33 on:** July 10, 2007, 18:54:22 PM »

The thing is you can have a so called "contract" saying you need proof of neutering in 3 months but legally you cant enforce it. People can also move without giving you a forwarding addy or sell the animal on as it is "their property" once you have accepted payment for the animal so that by any means is not fool proof either.

Of course i think you are allowed to withhold pedigree certs until you have proof of neutering but for the likes of that laperm person she bred to a X breed and obviously wasnt concerned about pedigree matings.

Team Svartalfheims · « **Reply #32 on:** July 10, 2007, 18:01:59 PM »

Quote from: lynn on July 10, 2007, 17:53:00 PM

Anyway the discussion led the way to early neutering IF AND WHEN it comes that all veterinary professionals recognise early neutering many would opt for it as this would be the ONLY way they can entrust people buying on the non active register are actually going to neuter as they are supposed to.

If I can persuade the vets to go for it I'll neuter all mine before they go to new homes as that way I don't need to spend 3 months worrying until I get the certificate of neutering through from owners.

Oh dear I have found LaPerm x Persian Cross advert

I bet they'll forget the "Available to approved, very loving, pet homes only" bit of their advert if a horrible person turns up offering the cash, poor little babies

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #31 on:** July 10, 2007, 17:53:00 PM »

funnily enough we have just touched on this topic in the laperm group. An add has appeared in a preloved classified advertising kittens saying it was a Planned Mating of male laperm and persian X...obviously the permie folk are mad as this is a new breed in the country and the few involved are working hard to get things right for the breed..certainly they dont want x breeds etc being churned out affecting the actual breed or peoples percieved ideas. Anyway the discussion led the way to early neutering IF AND WHEN it comes that all veterinary professionals recognise early neutering many would opt for it as this would be the ONLY way they can entrust people buying on the non active register are actually going to neuter as they are supposed to.

I think insider investigations may be on the way to find out where this male cat came from...very disapointing though as they have lied to the breeder and used the cat for a purpose he was not intented for

Tiggy's Mum · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2007, 17:39:04 PM »

I emailed the CP asking for the studies/lierature that their early neutering advixe was based on, as I would like to have the boys done sooner rather than later (if that's what's best for them). Got this reply back today:

Thank you for your email.

Cats Protection (CP) currently recommends that cats and kittens are neutered from 4 months of age, as opposed to the traditional 6 months of age.

Earlier neutering is practised widely in other countries and the attached policy statement on timing of neutering from The Cat Group examines the perceived problems associated. The Cat Group concludes that “there is no evidence to show that neutering earlier than six months (and as early as seven weeks) has developmental or behavioural consequences. The perceived increased risks of surgery/anaesthesia are now considerably reduced by published information on improved techniques and agents”.

The Cat Group is a collection of professional organisations dedicated to feline welfare through the development and promotion of policies and recommendations on the care and keeping of all cats. CP is a member organisation of The Cat Group; other members include the British Small Animal Veterinary Association, the European Society of Feline Medicine and the Feline Advisory Bureau.

I have also attached an article that was in a recent issue of CP’s Veterinary Newsletter. Please feel free to pass both of these documents onto your vet and please do not hesitate to contact us if I can be of any further assistance.

If anyone wants the documents they sent (one is a Word document the other is a PDF file) then PM me and I'll email them to you. One of the articles is aimed at vets so might sway a vet who is ooming and aahing over the age limit.

Millys Mum · « **Reply #29 on:** July 10, 2007, 17:24:06 PM »

Goat boy all you can do is phone around all the vets in your area. You could ask your local rescues which vets they use as often these are the ones who will be more obliging.

Dawn (DiddyDawn) · « **Reply #28 on:** July 10, 2007, 17:23:08 PM »

Quote from: goatboy on July 10, 2007, 17:06:07 PM

Also I chose to have a female cat this time as I used to feel guilty when I had tom cats, poor soul having his nuts chopped off. Giving me dirty looks and wondering (why does my back legs feel lighter)

The op is actually much easier for a tom cat, it's just a quick snip.......it's a little different for females.

Dawn (DiddyDawn) · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2007, 17:18:42 PM »

My vets won't do them until they are 6 months and after all the problems I've had with Kara, I would agree with them. I know Kara isn't a cat but she was done before we got her at around 5 months of age. I've had numerous problems with her down below and a few weeks ago she was admitted for something else and whilst in, Sean checked her over for me........her genitalia for her size, is a lot smaller than it should be and she's also been incontinant for god knows how long, and the reason is, because she wasn't developed enough physically when she was spayed

I really can't see it being any different for a cat, so I would err on the side of caution and get them done when they are physically mature and not before.

goatboy · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2007, 17:06:07 PM »

I really want to get Ozzy Spayed, she is only 4 months old but she is masive, must be over 2kg by now. But my vet will only spay at 6 months. I want to be the resposible owner, and not bring any unwanted kittens into the world that I will not be able to deal with. can someone please send me some details of who I can turn to in Bromley...

Also I chose to have a female cat this time as I used to feel guilty when I had tom cats, poor soul having his nuts chopped off. Giving me dirty looks and wondering (why does my back legs feel lighter)

Team Svartalfheims · « **Reply #25 on:** July 10, 2007, 16:23:03 PM »

In my opinion the younger the better. Bilbo was done at 5 months and Tigger was about 4.5months old. I'd happily neuter kittens at 12 weeks old if only I could find a vet that would do it.

Millys Mum · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2007, 16:21:08 PM »

Pinkbear, things can get missed in adults cats too, do a search for Menue and her lady bit that was floating around

Rebecca, nice to see you back

Beccles · « **Reply #23 on:** July 09, 2007, 20:24:08 PM »

The standard in the US is to spay/neuter at 8 weeks as a matter of course, I believe. The logic is that with such a young kitten they heal so very much faster, there is no abdominal fat layer to deal with, the incision's much much smaller, less time in surgery, less drugs and importantest of all no kitten would ever be rehomed without being neutered first.

I must admit that I hate the idea of operating on such a tiny baby, though

.

Pinkbear - no, they will not grow back, but they will continue to function if there is a piece of tissue with blood supply etc left intact. One of my ovaries is weeeeeeeny and I still have normal periods etc just the same

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2007, 21:55:44 PM »

As we've got everyone's attention...

Surely at 3-4-5 months, things are still developing? Is there not a danger that if a vet misses a small piece of

or

they will grow back, as do tonsils in people? I thought that was the reasoning behind some vets insisting on waiting... I'm sure I read a case of human fertility where a woman produced eggs with just a fragment of an ovary.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #21 on:** July 07, 2007, 21:47:53 PM »

Quote from: lynn on July 07, 2007, 14:14:36 PM

Quote
Of course I used the term 'bit' to spare anyone's breakfast and the eyes of small children

But that just doesnt make the mens eyes water the same

Sabrina (Auferstehen) · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2007, 19:38:45 PM »

Quote from: Ela on July 07, 2007, 09:16:58 AM

Cats Protection are now recommending as soon as possible after 4 months for neuter and spay. Of course in some parts of the USA the neuter/spay kittens before the are re-homed.

My cat Little Girl (RIP) was spayed at 8 weeks old in Maryland US, that was about 6 years ago though.

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2007, 14:14:36 PM »

Quote

Of course I used the term 'bit' to spare anyone's breakfast and the eyes of small children

But that just doesnt make the mens eyes water the same

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:54:54 PM »

Indeed, Ela.

The vet called me when the poor mite was on the table, to warn me about developments and ask what I wanted them to do. There was no hesitation, of course. You don't mess about taking risks that everything will be okay for the sake of saving the money.

But I did think, there were 7 in that ruddy litter, so why did my daughter have to pick the only one with this problem....

Edit:

Of course I used the term 'bit' to spare anyone's breakfast and the eyes of small children....

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:49:54 PM »

Cryptorchid is the proper name for retained testicle. (in veterinary terminology crypt means hidden and orchid means/refers to testes or testicle)

sometimes they are very easily located, many being just in the inguinal canal and can be felt so the vet knows exactly where to make the wee extra incision.

However occasionally this is not the case and due to the very serious threat of them becoming cancerous if left permanently the vet really must locate it which means full abdominal surgery (exploratory laparotomy).

In the foetus in cats (and dogs + humans etc) the gonads develop up right beside the kidneys, normally these travel down..before birth in females, males obviously can take longer as they have farther to travel, for some reasons sometimes 1 or even 2 can get stuck or just stop moving down towards the scrotum. Often this testicle will not be as well formed as the non retained one and so can be even harder to find, basically the vet would start by tracking back up the inguinal canal in hope he meets the testicle half way so to speak. Its never the case of a "bit" being somewhere else, its always the whole testicle, In straightforward cases this might take an extra 10 mins maybe but in the complicated ones i can clearly remember being there an hour or 2 later.

Ela · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:44:12 PM »

Quote

It went from being a straight forward nip and tuck, to

I do know that very occasionally it is very difficult for a vet to locate the 'bit' but they need to find it as it will almost certainly turn cancerous. So a vet would really have no choice but to delve further.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:37:44 PM »

Ela

It went from being a straight forward nip and tuck, to full flown abdominal surgery as they had to go find this missing 'bit'. He was in a collar for two weeks, got his wound infected, and had to have two courses of antibiotics. Total bill, £189. That was 4 years ago.....

Ela · « **Reply #14 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:29:45 PM »

Quote

and quadroupled the bills.

Round here the cost for a retained testicle is about 2½ times that of a normal neuter.

Quote

Poor little soul went through hell....

Cannot think why that should have been, we deal with quite a few a year and all seem fine.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #13 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:21:21 PM »

Quote from: Ela on July 07, 2007, 13:02:31 PM

Or if one or both have not dropped by about age 10 months discuss with vet as if left inside they can turn cancerous.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who do not realize that one or both have not developed.

I had one like that... He was a ginger. I couldn't tell, either, I'm afraid. He looked like he was developed, but didn't really like the idea of mum looking at his pride and joy.

They said something about 'crypo' something or other and quadroupled the bills.

Poor little soul went through hell....

Ela · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2007, 13:02:31 PM »

Quote

I think after their wotsits have dropped is a logical time.

Or if one or both have not dropped by about age 10 months discuss with vet as if left inside they can turn cancerous.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who do not realize that one or both have not developed.

Hippykitty · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2007, 12:33:44 PM »

Although I haven't had an unneutered male (Max had already been done), my understanding was that it's best to neuter them as soon as their marbles drop, because this means their testicles are fully developed and producing testosterone, so it won't be long before they start exhibiting tomcat behaviour such as spaying, which could continue after neutering if they get into the habit. I think some people like them to develop that chunky look which male hormones give them.

I suppose this depends on whether there are unspayed ladies around, or women who don't fancy having their knees bonked (this happened to me with a neighbour's cat, and there was me innocently thinking his was 'making his bed' when there was a shudder from his bum, and a wet patch on my knee!).

I think after their wotsits have dropped is a logical time.

With females, maybe about 5 mths; earlier for orientals.

Tiggy's Mum · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:56:22 AM »

Quote from: lynn on July 07, 2007, 11:08:26 AM

Its also can come down to situation and personal choice..ie if a kitten is already in its home and you can be sure it wont escape I'd still be inclined to leave them a little longer but that is my preference... with boys depending on how they were maturing I'd leave them as long as i could probably within sensible realms of course ( and if not smelly LOL)

Why would you leave them as long as you could Lynn? There is ZERO chance of the boys escaping (windows have windowscreens and front door opens into secure area with another door) so I am in a position where I could leave them longer if need be. Like I said they are 4 1/2 months old now and I would say that they are probably well developed enough to be done now - that's my completely non professional opinion that's not even based on previous experience just sort of presuming really!

I want to do what's best for them so will happily leave them longer if need be I was just wondering why you would prefer to leave boys as long as possible?

CurlyCatz · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:08:26 AM »

The old line of thoughts were best to neuter when the animal had "matured" physically. In males one of the biggest fears were when neutering early it could lead to smaller urethra size and urinary tract problems. I think newer studies and probably by the countries such as usa and australia neutering so much earlier they have realised that the significance of problems due to early neutering isnt as prevelant as once suspected.
I'm not sure about the females, perhaps the old line of thought was the same as it used to be in bitches and best to spay after 1 season or maybe it was just to have the cat at a certain physical size/weight before performing what is a major operation on them..both for size of organs and anaesthesia risks associated with lower weight..Nowadays the skill of surgeons is far far greater than it ever was 20+ years ago (with many vets now purely small animal vets and not mixed practices) and also the immense leaps forwards in anaesthesia means that younger cats can be operated on far more safely.
Also we now know that having 1 season isnt necessary for any reason and with the amount of cats needing homes tis better to catch them before any accidents happen.

Its also can come down to situation and personal choice..ie if a kitten is already in its home and you can be sure it wont escape I'd still be inclined to leave them a little longer but that is my preference, I'd still do a female by 6 months preferably before season but with boys depending on how they were maturing I'd leave them as long as i could probably within sensible realms of course ( and if not smelly LOL)

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:04:28 AM »

It depends on your vet. Some still insist on 6 months, but I've never had a problem getting my males done at 5 months (Jaffa was done 10 years ago at that age and Mosi last year). Females can come into heat as early as 4 months and it's best to get them done before they come into heat so for some that will mean getting them done at 4 months, but many vets will still insist on not doing it until they are 6 months. Also, if you have a male and a female together, waiting until 6 months is asking for trouble!

The Cat group (member organisations include FAB, British small animal veterinary association, GCCF, RSPCA...) promote early spaying and neutering, but until the rcvs take this on board and actually start training vets to do it, most will stick with the 6 months guideline. I can see no reason for not doing it from about 4 months though, as unless you have a particularly small cat they are developed enough to do it then. I wouldn't try to persuade my vet to do it when they're really tiny as I'd want my vet to be confident carrying out the procedure but I'm quite happy to press them to do it earlier than 6 months. The vet that actually did Mosi was from overseas and did at one point suggest waiting until he was 7 or 8 months but I just told her I wanted him doing at 5 months and that I felt he was ready. She was ok about it.

http://www.fabcats.org/cat_group/policy_statements/neut.html

Quote

There is no evidence to show that neutering earlier than six months (and as early as seven weeks) has negative developmental or behavioural consequences. The perceived increased risks of surgery/anaesthesia are now considerably reduced by published information on improved techniques and agents[/quote}

Tiggy's Mum · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:45:52 AM »

Thanks Ela

Don't think Lukey and Riley will thank you for it though

Ela · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:42:46 AM »

It is always in the latest CP News and Views (back page) If you do not have a copy I will PM you details as they are for branch use only.

Tiggy's Mum · « **Reply #5 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:30:34 AM »

Do you have contact details for the CP vet or would I just ask via HQ??

Ela · « **Reply #4 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:25:12 AM »

Quote

Do you have any literature/info about this Ela?

The CP advice is printed on all the vouchers. Perhaps the CP vet can send you some information.

Tiggy's Mum · « **Reply #3 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:10:52 AM »

Quote from: Ela on July 07, 2007, 09:16:58 AM

Cats Protection are now recommending as soon as possible after 4 months for neuter and spay. Of course in some parts of the USA the neuter/spay kittens before the are re-homed.

Do you have any literature/info about this Ela?

Lucas & Riley are 4 1/2 months old and I would say they are already 'fully developed'. I'm keen to get them done ASAP but when I asked the vet (at their first jab appointment) how old they would have to be to be neutered he said 6 months. Knowing about the early neuter thing from on here I asked could it be done any sooner if they were of a good size and weight and he said No, this wasn't my regular vet but he is a partner in the practise so I would imagine whatever he says goes. If I had some literature I could show him then he might reconsider.

Ela · « **Reply #2 on:** July 07, 2007, 09:16:58 AM »

Cats Protection are now recommending as soon as possible after 4 months for neuter and spay. Of course in some parts of the USA the neuter/spay kittens before the are re-homed.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #1 on:** July 07, 2007, 02:19:13 AM »

I'm now starting to realise that some of my info might be outdated, or even wrong.

I was told that because of varying development of 'family jewelry', vets usually prefer to leave neutering kittens til around 6 months - around the time that milk teeth fall out. But I have seen on the forum that peeps have been taking kittens to the vets as early as 4 months. Could it be that because I've only dealt with male kittens I've been told this? Is it younger for females?

Signed

Confused of Sandwichxxx

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