Once Bitten Twice Shy

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

I don't lose sight of the fact Rae was sent to you on antibiotics.  That was to my mind irresponsible. You have attended to her needs and that is laudable.  My overriding concern remains with Rae's future. vet bills are not cheap as you say.  Would you look to rehome her?


Breeders, whether of pedigrees or backstreet moggies, profit.  Good or bad, reputable or disreputable, money is the driver.  What distinguishes people is what happens when something goes wrong and what steps they're willing to take to help rectify matters - not just about cash but about the animal.

This is such a distressing topic.

[Liz]

Adam to all intesnse and purpose this is a Breeder v Breeder arguement and one that should be resolved as such not bandied about all over the place which is what younhave been doing

Sadly sometime things do not go well in any world but the animal you now have responsibility for is the prime concern not Breeder bashing or your ego

I just hope Rae is a the centre of this and the money you have already received back from the Breeder should cover the outstanding vet bills and leave some to get Rae well which at the end of the day should be your prime concern

[Liz]

When one has animals the cost is not an issue to get the animal well, I know only to well the costs involved on the rescue side having spent a 4 figure sum on a feral Mum and kittens I took in and was left with 3 dead kittens, nearly loosing Mum and remaining kittens and these are just moggies

Also if you google you can find that Adam puts his Stud bengal out to any breed Siamese and Persians and therefore is a breeder and makes money from any offspring produced so think this is a case of sour grapes

I hope Rae remains his priority and not his wallet and that he considers this when he himself is a breeder of sorts

[caledonia]

am I the only one who is imagining what Teresa would have had to say about all this?

£2000 would be a fortune to the rescues struggling to save unwanted moggies

this whole thread belongs on a site like Money Supermarket, as far as I am concerned, and not on Purrs

and if that offends anyone, or breaks any rules, I really don't give a 

I couldn't agree more! I had no idea so much money was involved in the trade of animals. It really saddens me.

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of all of this, Teresa would most definitely have been focused on Rae and what was best for her - is she in a safe place and is her welfare Paramount?  It seems to me that she ' s little more than a dodgy deal here and that' s truly horrific.

Adam, I feel for your position, but the crux of the matter here is - for the time being at least - a living, breathing animal.  It does seem ugly reducing it to cost, sadly.

What is your aim, and what would you like to see by way of resolution?  What is your ultimate plan for Rae if she survives?

[Kay and Penny]

am I the only one who is imagining what Teresa would have had to say about all this?

£2000 would be a fortune to the rescues struggling to save unwanted moggies

this whole thread belongs on a site like Money Supermarket, as far as I am concerned, and not on Purrs

and if that offends anyone, or breaks any rules, I really don't give a 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Adam this is a site that is a rescue site and all your wranglings with the other breeder are now causing upset to our membership.

Quite honestly we are only concerned with the health of little Rae and all the thousands you have paid out are of little interest to us and our rescues would be delighted to have the money you are talking about to help care for the waifs and strays that people are dumping.

The resession is in its x year now and boy do we all know about it.

Many of us have pedigrees, me included and we have breeders on here too but they also have an interest in the rescue cats and the rescues we support and recently supported our Christmas auction where all money goes to a rescue.

This is what Purrs is about.

[Linda (Bengalbabe)]

Sadly I don't believe little Rae is the priority in all of this. This is a breeder v breeder dispute. One of point scoring and money I suspect. Most postings of this nature are done for no other reason than to tarnish reputations. The main priority has to be little Rae surely?  Or is it money and a taste for revenge? And seriously what is your hang up with all things Scottish?   I will do the decent thing and make sure that the breeder you are bad mouthing knows of your postings all over the Internet. I know them well and have had several exceptionally healthy and beautiful cats from them ..........please focus your energies on Rae. She is much more in need of them than we are.

[caledonia]

Take responabily for sending down a sick animal?

The sick animal is with you now, not a lot can change that! You've been given a refund so perhaps you think about what you would like to be done now.

What do you think would resolve this situation?

[caledonia]

I'm really not sure what to make of this thread!

I'm sorry to hear about Rae's illness and hope that the poor mite recovers! I had no idea that a cat could ever cost anything like over £2000 even if the cat was for breeding purposes.

That price for an animal saddens me and makes this all seen about money.

I've never bought a pedigree animal in my life. I did once adopt two old timers from a pedigree rescue down south and didn't see them first and accepted them as seen in a busy car park and they looked awful. It was a transport run, I was happy to collect them.

They cost me a fortune in vet bills, they stunk to high heaven on delivery and there were clearly bigger issues that I had not been told about. I didn't care, I loved them from the moment I got them and paid what I had to. But they were family pets and a part of my home. That was always my plan for them.

I appreciate that little Rae appears to have been bought as a breeding animal and therefore was expected to be in full health and isn't. However personally I could never imagine taking someone to court over an animal, either you accept responsibility or she is sent back. If you have money to spend over £2000 pound on a cat then with all due respect have these vet bills really affected you. I know there is principle but this is an animal not a car with faulty parts!

The breeder has offered to take her back, they have refunded the money ( all be it in Scottish notes - it's not a foreign currency you know!) and I'm not sure what else could resolve this matter!

There has been police involvement, solicitor involvement and all sorts. At the heart of this is a sick animal. That makes me sad.

As for all the reference to Scottish this that and the next thing... Scottish breeder emailing, Scottish money, Scottish laws - it's not a foreign country Adam - our countries manage to co exist pretty well most of the time! There are hundreds of Scottish breeders, this is one experience! Similarly if someone breaks the law in England by harassing you then it doesn't really matter that they are from Scotland!

[Adam]

indeed

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

Responsibility or liability?  There's a difference. 

Liability may rest with the breeder.  Responsibility rests with everyone.

Do you order a cat without seeing it?  Yes, but you take a risk.

Do you transport a cat that doesn't look great?  It's up to you - you don't own it, you just get paid for delivery.  Conscience call.

Do you transport a cat that may not be 100% - possibly - the risk is always there.  The breeder may not have noticed any problem, or they may have noticed and decided to take the risk.  Or they may have noticed and decided to take the profit.

If it was black and white there would be no need for lawyers, Scottish or English or any other nationality.  I'm afraid the maxim "Caveat Emptor" applies in law - buyer beware.

I feel for the cat involved - that's my primary concern.  They aren't commodities.  Profit shouldnt come in to it, although sadly it does.  The welfare of the cat is the main priority.  Compensation or restitution is secondary.

[Adam]

fght

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

I think apportioning blame here isn't constructive.   Someone can be a good person, but may unwittingly arrange transport for a kitten that is unfit to travel.  A courier company may transport a cat in good faith and it may become ill in their care.  An individual may acquire a cat without viewing it first - none of this means someone is inherently good or bad.

Certain circumstances are not to be recommended, and as has already been said, wisdom with hindsight is a great gift but not a lot of help at the time.

Defamation of character cases generally mean no one wins in the end.

I would hope we would all  support a member whose cat is ill when they come to the forum, regardless of the circumstances, unless the purpose of posting is a b*tch-fest.

Regardless of the individual circumstances, the message is clear - dont buy when you haven't seen the cat/dog/whatever in its home environs and dont know/implicitly trust the breeder. 

Can we please keep this impersonal all round?

[Liz]

Adam you have posted this on every website with a cat connection and have now gone to the press and have accepted money which obviously will cover vet bills from the person you described and I think that all this going on will have been brought to the Breeders notice and deformation of character before final results are in is not a good thing to be doing

I hope Rae can be sorted out at the vets

[Adam]

Indeed

[Adam]

fgbgyhty

[Adam]

fgghrtyh

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

I suspect Adam has the kitten's welfare at heart now that she's in his care.   Travelling back would not help her situation much from the sounds of things.

A very tragic situation all round on the face of it, and I think the main priority is Rae's ultimate treatment and (hopefully) recovery.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I am getting very confused Adam, why dont you return this kitten to where it came from?

[Liz]

I know this breeder and she is a lovely person as is her husband and think perhaps by putting in the prefix you have told everyone who it is

[Adam]

bfgfghgyj

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

What is the vets best diagnosis?

[sheryl]

Bless her, Im glad that she is with someone who cares enough to get her the treatment etc that she so obviously needs. x  Sending lots of healing vibes her way 

[Adam]

vbfgbfgh

[sheryl]

Please continue Adam

As well as my 2 rescue moggies I have 5 Bengals.

I hope that your little one recovers and I am so sorry for your terrible experience - how is the health of your Boy?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Why is that?

We like to hear about all things cos also there are outside readers who just browse from outside

[Adam]

cvdffg

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Most people on this forum are involved in animal shelters and rescues. So this problem will not really effect them. Although I don't like to hear of a cat suffering I would never go to a breeder. Why would you when the shelters are full of cats and cats are being put down due to lack of homes.   

And sadly there aare so many Bengals in rescue

[Mymblesdaughter]

Most people on this forum are involved in animal shelters and rescues. So this problem will not really effect them. Although I don't like to hear of a cat suffering I would never go to a breeder. Why would you when the shelters are full of cats and cats are being put down due to lack of homes.   

[Adam]

oot.

[Liz]

Rae can I advise you that an English lawyer can not practice law in Scotland and it would be better if you could get a a Scottish Lawyer to act on your behalf

I have many friends who breed Bengals and am sure if you drop me a pm with details could speak to them for you and see what they could do to help

I have a lot of cats and have a Bengal, 2 Ragdolls and an NFC all rescues as well as my domestics and my majority my beloved ferals and yes vets fees are horrendous for my lot as I have 2 Hyper thyroid and a diabetic but having lived in England and Scotland there is little difference in vets fees, I have wonderful vets and probably pay a bit more but for peace of mind and the safety of my cats there is no greater price to pay

[Adam]

bgghgh

[Adam]

Personally
 

[caledonia]

Adam I've just read your second post - it did not show fully on my phone.

I hope that Rae recovers and please keep us updated on her progress.

I can't imagine where your breeder must be ....,very very far north as 14 hours is some drive!

[caledonia]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience Adam, that was very unfortunate and I would hope very rare.

I live in Scotland and yes whilst our legal systems are different, someone who purchased a kitten (or any other product) in Scotland is protected by Scottish law. Scottish law is not lesser to the English system or inferior, just different.

I would have thought that for most people the route of resolving problems with a breeder would be through the GCCF? They register for all of the UK and breeders surely want to keep their status with them?

I have had friends in Scotland buy Persians from down south and also in Scotland. Thankfully the majority  without incident however one friend who did have a problem contacted the breeder who was mortified the kitten was ill and offered a refund and for the family to keep the kitten as well. Most breeders take their registration very seriously and as a responsible owner you would want to ensure the breeder you were buying from was registered and not in the exclusions list?

I do have pedigree cats - all rescues however and all originally came from breeders in England long before I got them.

For the vast vast majority of people buying across the border does not cause problems and should surely not put people off.

I'm sorry your experience was so bad :-(

[Adam]

To be continued

[sheilarose]

Hello Adam and 

I'm sorry to read this, as you've clearly been the victim of some dreadful kitten breeder, and the information is likely to be useful to someone. 

I'm sure none of the regular visitors or members of Purrs would be lured by kitten farms, whichever part of the UK they're in, as Purrs is primarily a Cat Rescue forum so we are against breeding when so many animals are languishing for years in rescues everywhere.
Your words of caution just go to highlight what can sometimes be a heartbreaking and shameful business, not least that it simply increases the numbers of desperate, unwanted animals in rescue. 

Please stick around, read some of our rescue threads and if you still feel able, after what you've been through, to open your heart to a feline friend, we'll be so happy to help you find the cat of your dreams from our sister rescue resource:

CatChat.org.UK

[Adam]

A Word of Warning
If you live in England and you intend purchasing a Kitten/animal in Scotland, let me make the following Facts crystal clear, English law has NO jurisdiction-(legal authority) in Scotland, so if an unscrupulous Breeder tucks you up, you will not have a leg to stand on- so be very careful.
English law has no jurisdiction in Scotland. So let’s say you purchased a kitten in Scotland and it becomes sick, you contact the breeder who is less than helpful you try to explore other avenues to resolve this situation to no avail, now you think right I will take them to a small claims court? You would firstly need a Solicitor either in Scotland or one, who deals in Scottish law, your claim, would have to amount to the value of £5000, and it would be extremely difficult to claim your costs from the breeder even if you win in Scotland. Solicitor’s rates are around £195.00 + vat per hour. So if you spend just two hours talking to the Solicitor and he/she decides a letter would be the first course of action another two hours? Your bill for this alone will be around, £860.00. And the Scottish breeder will probably throw it in the bin regardless.
There are some very unscrupulous Breeder’s in Scotland that know they can hide behind the law, and this is not to say all breeders in Scotland are dishonest, as this would be very unfair, however if you brought a kitten in England and you live in England you can use the law to your advantage, this power is taken away from you should you live in England and purchase a kitten in Scotland, believe me it’s so stressful to be powerless, it is likewise very difficult to swallow, when a breeder living in Scotland tells you to do your worse, knowing they are literally bombproof.
Never have any animal delivered that you have not seen, never purchase an animal that you have not seen the parents of. And this includes photos; photos cannot show the condition of the animal or its sometimes filthy surroundings.
Breeders that offer free 4 weeks insurance; some of these insurances are not worth the paper they are written on, one of these very well known companies states in their terms and conditions-section (what are the significant exclusions and limitations of my pet’s policy) and I quote- Your insurance does not cover any illness which starts in the first 14 days of this policy- unquote.
If after our advice you decide to buy in Scotland a few other pointers
Make sure your animal has been seen by a vet, make sure your transfer of ownership certificate is handed over and has been filled in by the breeder showing clearly your name and address, make sure you obtain a receipt for your Kitten/animal clearly stating your details and likewise the kittens details, make sure your kitten inoculations certificate is up to date, and any health checks have been completed, lastly make sure your cats insurance is what it states, and cover starts on the date of purchase, and not 14 days after?
Please be very careful, kind regards and happy kitten hunting.     
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/small-claims