Author Topic: Time to get used to new foods?  (Read 5127 times)

Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 16:56:20 PM »
Just an update in case anyone was asking the same question in the future...

Previously when I introduced the new food over 4 or 5 days they had tummy troubles. The boys have now been very gradually weaned onto the JWB for three weeks - they're both eating a decent portion per day (in addition to their wet breakfast/dinner) with no tummy issues *touch wood* so looks like a very gradual introduction was the way to go so  :thanks: for the advice.

I'm even thinking about trying Riley on his old Bozita again, but very gradually this time. When I'd tried him on it again over the last few months I introduced it over just a few days so fingers crossed he may even be able to eat normal food again!

Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 23:27:43 PM »
Mark - I don't think Riley's problem is cereal as Bozita is grain free and he was still getting a runny bum when eating only Bozita (no dry). Purina One is on my list of dry foods to try if I can't get him settled on JWB but the small packs put me off!

 :thanks: Lottie - I'll pass it on to him  :naughty:

My vet didn't really suggest any allergy/intolerance test other than the initial (negative) faecal tests which by the lack of any nasties indicated it was probably an intolerance. I kept mentioning blood tests but she said as he was young and otherwise fit and healthy that she didn't see any value in blood tests. She knew I was insured so was quite surprised that they didn't want to test for everything going. I think she was of the opinion that getting him settled on a food and no diaorrhea was the priority.

It's a pain in teh bum though as I needed to trim his claws tonight, ordinarily I tip a huge pile of dreamies on the floor and he is so excited about hoovering them up he lets me do his paws without even noticing! Tonight I had to resort to brute force restraining him  :-[


Offline Lottie (Team Svartalfheim's)

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 20:56:17 PM »
Helen: Boopy said to let Riley know that she totally agrees that Hills I/D sachets are  :sick: but to tell him that the tins are delicious and whilst she doesn't have a sensitive tummy at all they are her favourite tins in the world they are that yummy :evillaugh:


I've had a cat with a food allergy that suddenly appeared as massive swelling in the mouth at 10/11 months old despite having been fed the same food since she was 3 weeks old! It takes time for an allergy to form. I had the full set of allergy tests done to find out exactly what she was allergic to (and discovered that the reason JWB hadn't helped was that she was allergic to one of the ingredients   :doh:) and then changed her diet and once she was on the new diet and the steroid injections had got rid of all the swelling she never had any more issues after that. The allergy panels (done on a blood sample) tell you whether the cat has an intolerance or an actual allergy to each of the things they test for and tells you on a scale of 1-5 how much they are allergic to it.
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Offline Mark

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2011, 00:11:26 AM »
Alice has improved no end since I cut out wheat. I am still giving her the Purina One sensitive (still on offer in Sainsburys) and Felix in Jelly - she isn't really interested in Bozita but loves the poultry selection & the Fish selection felix in Jelly which surprisingly don't contain cereals - I'm sure they used to  :-:

Her poos are still quite whiffy but nearly always solid now  :) - also no more blood & mucous. I am convinced it was a wheat intolerance/allergy.

I jut looked up Fortiflora as I am thinking of giving her a probiotic but saw that it only conains one strain - I would rather give her a multi-strain one. Also I'm not happy about the added vitamins as they can be harmful. It does say only to be given on a vets direction. I want something that I can give long-term.
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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 23:28:14 PM »
Well, operation introduce dry food began tonight  :scared:

10 pieces each (the duck JWB is teeny)...

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2010, 13:33:49 PM »
Susanne - I haven't tried fortiflora but did try Lacto-B when this first started, although I've found it very effective in the past it didn't help this time round. Is fortiflora better/different to LactoB then?


I don't know as I don't have any lacto b in at the moment so I was glad when I got a free box of the purina stuff at the cat show.  I have always liked lacto b in the past.  I have tried another probiotic from vetuk (protexin?) and that didn't work with Mosi.  but this fortiflora has really worked.   Also, Jaffa had a bit of an upset stomach a week or two ago - he did a runny poo in the tray and vomited about an hour later - so I gave him a sachet in with his food and his next poo was totally back to normal.  It is very yeasty - it is brown in colour and smells yeasty.  So for cats that like yeast, that's good - if they don't, not so good!   Both Jaffa and Mosi seem to like it.   

Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2010, 13:19:11 PM »
Susanne - I haven't tried fortiflora but did try Lacto-B when this first started, although I've found it very effective in the past it didn't help this time round. Is fortiflora better/different to LactoB then?

Desley, I think FF is right and that JWB is definitely higher in rice therefore lower in meat content than RC. Ingredients are listed with the highest content first - RC's ingredients are chicken liver, chicken meat THEN rice. JWB ingredients are rice THEN duck. That said I've no idea if rice is an issue for him, I doubt it as he can happily eat the RC sensitivity which although it has more meat than rice still has rice as a main ingredient. Also I don't think RC are claiming that chicken never causes allergies, just that it's much less likely to be the cause of an intolerance along with duck and rice. 

My vet said that cats are often intolerant to Beef, Pork and wheat. The bozita is grain free but every flavour contains beef and pork and it definitely seems that he can't tolerate it anymore as every time I've weaned him back onto Bozita (very gradually unlike the JWB and RC dry!) after 4 or 5 days he's developed a runny bum again  :shy:


Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2010, 12:53:01 PM »
I thought cats were most likely to be allergic to foods they are commonly fed?  hence the reason why foods designed with food allergies in mind tend to go for unusual or lesser used protein sources, eg venison, lamb..  rather than chicken/poultry which is common in cat food.

I think it's really difficult to define what we mean by "rich".  I have certainly used it as a general term before, but I'm not sure what I mean, esp with respect to cat food.  high in fat? high in protein?   foods that have a high percentage of a named meat aren't necessarily higher in meat overall than some of the lower % foods - so are they "richer"?

Sorry, sort of thinking aloud here!

Offline Desley (booktigger)

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 12:48:23 PM »
The main problem with RC is that they dont state meat content on their packaging, so it could be any amount, whereas JWB is min 26%, so not sure how you can say that JWB would be lower in meat than RC. I also think that RC's claims that chicken doesn't cause allergies is slightly odd - I have certainly heard of cats being allergic to chicken and some of the allergy foods are completely different protein sources such as venison.
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Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2010, 12:09:41 PM »
Helen, have you tried Purina fortiflora?

http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/FelineProductDetail.aspx?prod=240

I mentioned this on the purina thread a while back.   I got some given to me free at the supreme cat show and I have been giving it to Mosi who has had similar problems to Riley, although to a lesser degree.  He has always had firm poos no matter what he eats until he was a bit unwell earlier in the year (he had fleas at the time and I think he may have had a mild flea allergy).  Since then his poos have been soft but not really loose.  Sometimes they firm up and then we have a bit of a relapse.  Since I've been giving him the fortiflora everything seems to be getting better and staying better. 

Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 23:14:31 PM »
Thanks guys  :hug:

To be honest I'm not sure what he is intolerant to as this has all come on quite suddenly, he was happily eating Bozita and PAH dry for 3 years with no issues  :Crazy:




Offline Den

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 19:45:59 PM »
No not at all  :hug: I just hope I don't come across as rude or obnoxious.

I can't answer your questions though as I just don't know the answers. All I know is food with duck in can result in sickness or the splats with some animals. Yet the same food with a different main meat and all the other ingredients is fine. I can only go by experience and my gut instinct says it is the duck that's the problem rather than rice.

You are supposed to introduce new foods gradually with all animals to avoid digestive troubles ... A lot of times this isn't needed. With some animals it really is needed otherwise you'll be cleaning up the results! I can't give the scientific reasoning but it's true. Some animals get really icky tums with new foods unless introduced slowly.

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Offline Fire Fox

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 18:44:26 PM »
Sorry, but I disagree with rice being a problem. Duck is a very rich meat. JWB would contain enough of it to cause digestive upsets. I have personally come across a number of animals who cannot eat duck or 'not common meats' likewise with animals who cannot tolerate the higher end high meat/no grain diets as they are far too rich for their tums. They can however tolerate the lower/mid range foods. Riley is doing well on the RC which does have rice as the first ingredient and I think 4th?

FF I appreciate you are a human nutritionist and as such have a strong interest, I do not have any scientific data just personal experience (having cared and fed hundreds and hundreds of pet/rescue animals).

I hope I have not offended you in any way and I apologise unreservedly if I have done so.  :hug: I think and write like a scientist which means my wording can sometimes come over as rude, in real life my clients appreciate my blunt explanations but of course they have the benefit of my friendly and smiley demeanor!  :shy:

I am sorry but I don't understand what you mean by rich? I get that you mean a tummy upset but caused by what component of the duck? You cannot say that a digestive disturbance is caused by one component of a mixed meal unless you have matched the two foods for every other ingredient, and for quantities of each ingredient. I am passionate about this because of the fads for western humans to invent 'intolerances' to certain food groups (wheat, dairy) which, more often than not, are caused by them including refined foods in their daily diet or excessively large meals.

In humans we are talking about a digestive disturbance caused by foods or meals that are high in animal protein and/ or fat. As you say duck is certainly a fatty bird but there will be far less of the duck fat or duck protein in JWB as in the RC so the culprit is highly unlikely to be the quantity of animal protein or animal fat.

The enzymes needed to break down an animal protein (beef, duck, chicken) are basically the same, the difference is overloading the enzymes with a 'large dose'. I do not doubt your experience which is of course far greater than mine, but the chances are you are comparing foods with a different quantity of animal protein, animal fat, percentage of grains etc. so it's not possible to say that the specific meat or quantity of meat is the issue.

Cats are obligate carnivores, many of whom do not digest grains well. That doesn't mean I think no cat should ever eat grains again as it should be on an individual basis, and it doesn't mean I have counselled against using JWB or RC with Riley. I agree with you that slow introduction is often the key but my reasoning is that this would allow time for the gut flora to adapt, and for more of the enzymes needed to break down the extra carbs to their sugar base units to be produced. I also agree with you that this is a two way street, so cats accustomed to a high grain diet may struggle to digest a high meat food if there is no transition period.

I am getting my ingredients list from the RC PDF which lists rice as the third ingredient, I hope I am not using the wrong product?!  :doh:  Looking at the nutritional breakdown the RC contains more protein, more fat and thus fewer carbs than the JWB. Compare the protein content is a little unfair as we don't know how much is from vegetable matter - JWB contains 9% potato protein and even more maize gluten suggesting the duck content is not high.

Interestingly the first ingredient of the RC is chicken liver, which many think to be a rich meat. From the same link "Chicken, duck and rice are rarely involved in food allergy. These protein sources are highly digestible."
http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/sensitivity_control_wet_feline.pdf
http://www.wellbeloved.com/products/cat_food/duck__rice/adult.aspx

Hope that makes more sense!  :hug:
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Offline Den

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 17:44:26 PM »
Sorry, but I disagree with rice being a problem. Duck is a very rich meat. JWB would contain enough of it to cause digestive upsets. I have personally come across a number of animals who cannot eat duck or 'not common meats' likewise with animals who cannot tolerate the higher end high meat/no grain diets as they are far too rich for their tums. They can however tolerate the lower/mid range foods. Riley is doing well on the RC which does have rice as the first ingredient and I think 4th?

FF I appreciate you are a human nutritionist and as such have a strong interest, I do not have any scientific data just personal experience (having cared and fed hundreds and hundreds of pet/rescue animals).

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Offline Fire Fox

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 17:16:40 PM »
Hypo-allergenic just means the most common allergens have been eliminated, any animal can be allergic to any substance including natural ones. I am allergic to numerous hypoallergenic skincare products (moisturisers and washes) including prescription only ones.  >:(

I don't understand how the duck in JWB can be too rich - assuming too rich means too high in animal protein or fat - as JWB is relatively low in meat? My guess would be the culprit is the rice as there will be a far higher percentage of rice in the JWB compared with the RC. The body uses different enzymes to digest protein, fat and carbohydrates, also the gut flora will react differently to a change in macronutrients. In humans the bad guys that give you wind and contribute to IBS feed on sugars (which are carbs same as rice).

I am not suggesting Riley is allergic to rice, simply that, as an obligate carnivore, his system may not be equipped to cope with such a high percentage of grains. If that is the case you may be able to do a slow transition, but some felines don't ever adapt to a high carb diet. Are you still using a probiotic supplement, Helen?
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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 13:22:42 PM »
It was the Hills I/D sachet that he turned his nose up at! Lucas was quite happy to polish it off on Riley's behalf though!

Offline Liz

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2010, 20:49:44 PM »
Helen it also comes in sachets in gravey - we try anything as Sweetie is being a bit fussy well at 19 and diabetic we pander to her :shocked:
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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 20:44:32 PM »
Helen have you tried the Hills sensitive diets it comes in tins and is about £1.00 ish to buy most vets sell it - we use it with the ferals when they first come in as they tend to inhale food like they have never been fed

If it's called Hills I/D (prescription food from vets) then Yes, but the boy from Del Monte he say :yuk:  :evillaugh: Thanks for the idea though.

The fact that he won't eat it aside, that works out to about the same cost as the RC sensitivity prescription wet food. If I can't find a dry food that agrees with him I'll have to stick to RC wet only but would like to find a good dry food for him, in addition to the wet food, for a) variation reasons and b) cost reasons!

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 20:36:44 PM »
Helen have you tried the Hills sensitive diets it comes in tins and is about £1.00 ish to buy most vets sell it - we use it with the ferals when they first come in as they tend to inhale food like they have never been fed

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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 19:48:17 PM »
Thanks Desley, I'm loathe to mess with the wet food as the vet seems to think he has developed some kind of food intolerance (even though he has eaten Bozita for 3 years with no problems). He is doing brilliantly on the Royal Canin sensitivity wet (just chicken & rice) and it's quite hard to find wet foods that don't contain multiple meats. For example Bozita Crayfish is actually chicken, beef, pork and crayfish. I found one looked like it might fit the bill - 'HiLife 60% real meat chicken & turkey' and no other meats or meat derivatives but they both refused to even lick it!  :tired:

If he could eat normal wet cat food that would be fab though as it's made it quite difficult with feeding them. At £60 a month I can't afford for Lu to eat the Royal Canin wet too (although obviously if he needed to eat it I would find the money) so mealtimes involve shutting Riley in the kitchen eating the £60 a head stuff while Lu eats his £15 a head stuff in the hall!

I'm going to let his tummy settle and then try him on a teeny amount of duck JWB and gradually increase it over a few weeks this time. I'm just hoping I haven't pushed him over the edge as he didn't eat much brunch and barely touched his tea - unheard of for Mr Guzzle-guts so I'm wondering if his tummy is feeling sensitive from the Royal Canin dry stuff I tried to introduce  :shy:

Offline Desley (booktigger)

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 19:26:02 PM »
I agree with Den, you need to do a much more gradual mix and over a longer period of time. I personally think the turkey one is the best, but have had to mix it with something cheaper for the bulk of my fosters. you coul dtry a wet food that is less rich, and once he is fine with that, mix it in with the Bozita (none of mine can tolerate that, although they all enjoy eating it).
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Offline Den

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 17:52:04 PM »
To be honest as long as it has been kept in a cool, dry place it should be perfectly ok. I never really seal bags up here and mine are open a lot longer than 6 weeks. Never ever had a problem.

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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 17:42:42 PM »
Thanks Den, I think I'm going to try that as I really want him to be able to have a bit of variation, not to mention the savings involved!

I opened the bag about 6 weeks ago now and just shoved it back in the cupboard, I've just looked at to check the ingredients and I didn't seal it properly. Would it be best to buy a new bag do you think?

Offline Den

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 17:33:45 PM »
Yes I do think it is worth a try. The longer you introduce it the more likely his body will accept it. To begin with I'd treat the JWB like a treat rather than a meal, just giving a few pieces a day and work up. Could then do it a couple of times a day and increase quantity. If after a few weeks when you try full meals he is still getting an upset tum it will likely be the duck is too rich.

lay me down, let me go, feeling heavy the ground is cold,
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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 17:14:17 PM »
Thanks Den, I think I probably over-fed the duck JWB as they were literally inaling it! First of all they only had a teeny amount but at around day 2 or 3, when there hadn't been an adverse reaction, I sprinkled a load on their treat board which they hoovered up as poor Riley hasn't been allowed treats for 3 months.

The Royan Canin digestive comfort is fish based and they probably had a portion the size of a crumpet each for the last 4 or 5 days.

Once Riley's tummy goes back to normal (by feeding only RC sensitivity wet for a few days) do you think it's worth trying them on the JWB again but introducing over a few WEEKS rather than a few DAYS?

Offline Den

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Re: Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 17:09:08 PM »
The duck could be a bit too rich for his tum. When you are feeding it how much are you feeding at a time? The key to switching with delicate tums is do it very slowly over a couple of weeks. You add a very tiny amount to the regular food and after a couple of days add more. You end up with 1/4 new food, 1/2, 3/4 and eventually all new food. Sorry if this is what you've been doing.

lay me down, let me go, feeling heavy the ground is cold,
lay me down take it slow I'm ready to stumble, sing & then swing low
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Offline Tiggy's Mum

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Time to get used to new foods?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 17:01:05 PM »
If any of you have changed your cats food, how long has it taken them to get used to it and not to have tummy troubles?

The reason I'm asking is that after a prolonged bout of diarrhoea Riley has been stable on the wet RC sensitivity pouches for around three months now. I would like him to be able to eat dry food as well, one for variation and two for cost reasons! He's eating at least three pouches a day which is around £60 a month if I buy it online or £90 if I get it from the vets - by contrast wet Bozita (high meat content/no grains) which Lu still eats is £15 a month!

Anyway, I tried him on Duck James Wellbeloved which they LOVED but at around day 4/5 he started getting a runny bum again so I stopped feeding it. I recently tried them on Royal Canin digestive comfort (not a prescription food) and again at around day 4/5 he had a runny bum again. Lucas didn't have full blown runny bum with both of the above but his motions were definitely much looser than normal with both foods.

Both times I've stopped the new food immediately as I'm so wary of upsetting Riley's digestive system after the last bout of diarrhoea but am now wondering whether if I'd just carried on feeding them it whether they would both have got used to it. James Wellbeloved was actualluy recommended by the vet as it's hypoallergenic so can't see what's in it that would give him full blown runny bum syndrome!


 


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