Hunger strike vs. prescription food

[Fire Fox]

If you are interested in a non-sugary cat drink you might look at VIYO which I believe is palatable as it contains meat by products and not because it is dairy-based/ sweet. It comes in sachets which you can give as they are or dilute with water - Noah liked both options. Also includes prebiotics which help with digestive and immune health.

Ingredients here, but don't buy from that site as it's expensive! Comes onto a four for the price of three at Pet Planet every so often.
http://www.superpremium-dog-and-cat-food.co.uk/viyo-adult-cat-61-p.asp
If you are wanting to avoid sugar for dental health, be aware that all carbohydrates feed plaque bacteria - cereals in dry cat food (and some wet) as well.  Nutrition really is a minefield.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thats wonderful 

Hope you both have a wonderful Christmas 

[dolcetta46]

Update on my boy, yesterday we fed him the last antibiotic pill and thank goodness the torture is over for him, and his appetite has come back in its full force as well 
We found a few different variations, Royal Canin S/O pouches of wet morsels, and another italian brand which had pretty positive reputation as palatable enough for fussy cats, these were accepted by his highness pretty well, though always mixed with his regular food 1/2-1/2.  I may try to reduce the amount of the regular food but I am afraid he would refuse again when it reaches a certain point... It is better to make sure he does continue to eat IMO...
I am also reducing the amount of biscuits, and giving him HD milk (I discovered the cat milk contains high amount of sugar, corn syrup, glucose and such, so I decided against it) to encourage him to get more liquid in. 
Poor butter will be very unhappy this christmas, because his beloved christmas cake will be a no no..  aside from that he seems quite normal now, now I hear his famous jetstream of waterfountain when he goes to wee, which sounds like a sweet music 
Thanks again everyone for your support and concern, let's hope there will be no further problems!!

And happy holidays to you all!!

[Fire Fox]

actually while reading the article Gillian provided, this mention really disturbed me. 

The so-called 'urinary tract formulas' were born.

Unfortunately, in trying to 'fix' a cat's unnatural alkaline urinary pH - caused by Man's greed in the first place - pet food manufacturers created even more problems by adding urinary acidifiers in the form of dl methionine, etc., which led to the formation of calcium oxylate (CaO) crystals/stones in many cats.  Suddenly, there were far more patients suffering with CaO crystals/stones than there were patients with struvite crystals/stones.

I will try some of the wet versions if we find something he eat, but I think I will split between 1/2 of it and 1/2 normal food-fresh chicken or white fish, so nothing will go extreme...

Be careful just feeding a complementary food (fish or chicken) on such a regular basis as your furball will be missing out on vital nutrients - cooking destroys taurine for example. You can purchase additives that are designed to make plain raw meat complete, I cannot vouch for the their suitability for a cat with stones/ crystals. I will keep my fingers crossed you find a palatable food, as I am sure this is stressing you out. 

[Fire Fox]

There is going to be a difference between what a cat with CRF can cope with starvation wise and a healthy cat. I just don't understand why post something related to CRF (where the cats are very poorly), especially something which talks about death  Most people (including me) [said Oliver can't go without eating.

What do you mean by very poorly, outwardly symptomatic? There is a huge difference between survival and thriving - yet many heath conditions are asymptomatic until they are very advanced. Just because a creature not diagnosed with a serious condition does not mean they are not unwell under the surface -think of 'Supersize me' or Jamie Oliver's 'School Dinners' (asthma pump episode). It is blinkered to compartmentalise different medical conditions, all too frequently more than one condition will coexist.

The best food for Oliver at the moment is going to be prescription food. He eats the food, the crystals dissolve and he is back to being normal Oliver. It is working out whether he doesn't like it, or whether he's not eating it because he's associating the food with him feeling sick (if the antibiotics are making him feel that way).

Vets are rather strict with the prescription food, mainly because if the cat eats it the crystals dissolve and pose no threat or discomfort any more.

Or perhaps veterinarians - like general practitioners - know so little about nutrition that they plump for the safe option? Are there published meta-analyses proving that a prescription diet is better? Lets be honest, none of the big name pet food brands are in business to selflessly improve the health of cats! Please note I haven't suggested Dolcetta stops offering the prescription food.

[Gillian Harvey]

To be fair, I think the formulas were adjusted after that, but still think that by feeding an appropriate 'normal' diet  and dealing with any stress and/or weight problems, the problem can be managed without the need for expensive prescription diets.

[dolcetta46]

actually while reading the article Gillian provided, this mention really disturbed me. 

The so-called 'urinary tract formulas' were born.

Unfortunately, in trying to 'fix' a cat's unnatural alkaline urinary pH - caused by Man's greed in the first place - pet food manufacturers created even more problems by adding urinary acidifiers in the form of dl methionine, etc., which led to the formation of calcium oxylate (CaO) crystals/stones in many cats.  Suddenly, there were far more patients suffering with CaO crystals/stones than there were patients with struvite crystals/stones.

I will try some of the wet versions if we find something he eat, but I think I will split between 1/2 of it and 1/2 normal food-fresh chicken or white fish, so nothing will go extreme...

[Gillian Harvey]

The best food for Oliver at the moment is going to be prescription food. He eats the food, the crystals dissolve and he is back to being normal Oliver.

The crystals will dissolve when the urine is acidic - feed a good meat content/no carbohydrate wet food, remove stress, as mentioned before, and the urine will be acidic.

[dolcetta46]

The tactics from yesterday continue to work so far    The amount he is consuming is very small compared to the norm, but perhaps it is just as well while he is on the med.  Saturday we will go around the pet shops and try to find some more variety of urinary care products, I saw some of them had pretty encouraging reviews and I am hoping that we can find some wet food he will accept. 
I will try but if all else fails I will try to stick with the s/o biscuits and continue to feed him as I am doing now, and give him as much supplementary liquids as possible along with it. 
Thanks everyone for your support, concern and help!! 

[Den]

There is going to be a difference between what a cat with CRF can cope with starvation wise and a healthy cat. I just don't understand why post something related to CRF (where the cats are very poorly), especially something which talks about death  Most people (including me) said Oliver can't go without eating.

The best food for Oliver at the moment is going to be prescription food. He eats the food, the crystals dissolve and he is back to being normal Oliver. It is working out whether he doesn't like it, or whether he's not eating it because he's associating the food with him feeling sick (if the antibiotics are making him feel that way).

Vets are rather strict with the prescription food, mainly because if the cat eats it the crystals dissolve and pose no threat or discomfort any more.

Memphis was on s/d for a month then c/d for about 2 months, with gradual introductions of the c/d dry. Then I gradually changed him back over to his normal food. He eats the same as he did before, except for one thing. I've virtually cut out all fish. He had no stress, no bacteria, was no where near over weight, wasn't on a dry only diet. The only thing I could think of, and it may have been pure coincidence, was he had eaten a lot of fish for the two weeks leading up to his stay in the vets. It wasn't intentional, just he was having a fishy dry food and had a lot of fishy pouches. He's been on his normal food, minus fish for the past two years and hasn't had any bladder problems since (touch wood). He wees like a horse 

Oddly enough when he was having his problem and had to go on prescription food, I was very wary because it was just one flavour and one texture, with no dry food allowed and I wasn't sure Memphy would cope without something crunchy  His vet assured me that cats love the s/d as it is very palatable. Someone should tell Purrs cats this. It certainly smells strong enough, with its lovely aroma of Liver 

[Dawn F]

fire fox I'd love to have a chat with you lol!

[Fire Fox]

But that's for animals with CRF  the animals are already very poorly and starvation is going to put much more stress on their little bodies.

From years studying and working in human healthcare, I have learned that food is an incredibly powerful mediator of both health and disease. Undernourishment damages the human body to the extent that western children are being diagnosed with lifestyle-related conditions such as type 2 diabetes.  Starvation puts stress on every animal be it large or small, apparently healthy or with a diagnosed health issue. Felines and humans can store spare fat for energy, they cannot store spare amino acids yet protein is needed on a daily basis for repair and regeneration of EVERY tissue in the body. Without regular intake of food the body very quickly scales down non-essential processes ... such as cells of the immune system.

[dolcetta46]

Desley, the fish tablets, from the smell of it it's almost certainly made from whitemeat fish, it smells like baccalà (dried cod).  Right now I am not giving the tablets themselves I use their crumb as "condiments", as the smell is very strong (which is obviously a lovely aroma to cats) and seem to conceal the unpleasant odour/taste of the prescription food well.  Indeed not getting any "edible" food is also a serious stress factor for him, so I am glad I found the fair balance at least for now.

DaisyMac, Den directed me to your thread and I did read the journey you and JO Ripley was going through, and I am so glad you have found a way to get him to eat and take enough liquid    It is true that all the excellent prescription food that vet recommends would do no good if our babies refuse to eat them.  I have read a little further on the subject and it does seem that the most important thing above all is to get them to take enough liquid. 
And yes I also read about some of the economy brands, and especially those fancier lines that come from these brands (like Sheba, fancy feasts and Oliver's purina Gourmet line etc.), they doctor the food with flavours which are particularly attractive to them and they tend to develop addiction. 
Hope Mr. JOR will continue on with his recovery, and thanks for sharing your experience, and your support!! 

[Daisymac]

I still have problems with JO Ripley and eating his CD food,  I have taken to getting a very small amount of felix wet and mixing it with his dry prescription food and he seems to eat that OK,   it is literally a teaspoon full of Felix but without that Ripley had gone back to not eating the CD at all.  We also make Tuna ice cubes by draining the spring water from a tin of tuna into a bowl and adding some more water and then putting it into ice cube trays and freezing,  Ripley loves to lick at his special ice cubes and I am happy that he is getting enough liquids.  It is hard and I was in tears every morning when JOR wouldnt eat,  we have been back to the vet countless times and have spent a huge amount on different combinations of food from Hills/Royal Canin etc.  My vet told me something that makes so much sense and made me realise why JOR didnt like the prescription food,  bascially feeding a cat Felix/Whiskas etc is like feeding them McDonalds and when you change them to precription food it is like asking them to eat lentals and they really don't want to !  good luck,  PM me if you need anything else x

[Desley (booktigger)]

It sounds like a good plan except for one thing - fish isn't recommended with urinary issues, as it can be a trigger, although the darker the fish, the worse it is, so white fish wouldnt be as bad as say tuna. My old vet didn't prescribe urinary food, just more wet, more water and less stress. So you could mix water to his wet meals to increase his water intake, or a fountain/dog bowl to encourage him to drink more.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Sounds a possible plan 

[dolcetta46]

FYI, today I did one experiment, I mixed some of the s/o biscuits into the container that holds his well-loved special cat treat from iceland (it is made with pure ground fish fillet without any artificial ingredient), shook it around a little to coat the biscuits with the tiny crumbs of the treat.  and I took out one kibble at a time and gave it to him as if I was giving him a treat.  He fell for it, he ate 20-30 kibbles at a time and I repeated it in 3 separate sessions.  It all went well.  This special treat crumbles fairly easily, and it is highly "fragrant", so I mixed the crumbs generously into the wet s/d, I managed to spoon feed 2 mouthful to him, which is really a leaps and bounds forward compared to his usual reaction.  To enforce the liquid intake I scooped up all the gravy from Purina Gourmet which he loves so much and he lapped up with vigour.  So today was fairly good day compared to the fiasco of the last 2 and half days, I am not knocking on any wood and say no further though...

[dolcetta46]

welcome back! I have NO experience in these matters, but was reading about bladder problems in cats this afternoon and the following stuck in my mind
"The Best Food for a CRF Cat ... is a food that the cat will eat. I'm not trying to be flippant here. You can source the most expensive, organic, wholesome food on the planet, but if your cat would rather starve than eat it, it is of no use whatsoever.
In 11 guidelines for conservatively treating chronic kidney disease (2007) Polzin D, Veterinary Medicine December 2007, Dr Polzin makes the shocking observation that "in many or most dogs and cats with chronic kidney disease, death or euthanasia results directly or indirectly from starvation."
http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm

And if it's any consolation, my research this afternoon was triggered by Noah (ex-stray, as greedy as any dog) refusing breakfast. Turns out he doesn't like salmon!

Thank you for another interesting article FireFox!  As Den pointed out, Oliver's problem is a bit different, there are many interesting informations to take note of.  Along with Gillian's post now I am almost encouraged to forget about the idea of the prescription food, that will make him so relieved lol, I need to study more about this matter to decide what to do when he goes off antibiotics...

[dolcetta46]

My Ben had this problem about 6 yrs ago, and also blocked needing emergency treatment. I tried him on the prescription diet but he wouldnt eat it, I did a lot of research into the condition following this thinking there had to be a better way. Instead I changed all the cats onto wet diet only (they were previously eating all dry) and then onto a raw diet - now they have a variety of tinned, pouch and raw, with only a little dry as treats. Ben has never had a further problem.

This condition is usually down to several factors, not always just one thing and I remember reading recently that bacterial infection as a cause IS more common than was previously thought. But other factors include being overweight, low activity, low moisture throughput, stress. The carbohydrates commonly used in most dry, and many wet foods also don't help because they alkalise the urine - which should actually be slightly acidic - this is achieved by feeding a wet diet, preferably with a good meat content and NO carbs (cereals, rice etc).

Have a look at this info on the subject, its written by vet Lisa Pierson http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

When I look back Ben's problems werent just diet related, he was stressed at the time as I was preparing for a house move, so I was stressed with all that led up to the move, and the move itself - and he must have been pickiing up on that. 

Thanks so much for the very informative article, and your own advice Gillian!!  It is very encouraging to have a second opinion from such an experienced purrrson   I bookmarked the article and I will surely use it as a reference.  As a regular routine I have been giving Oliver about 30g of biscuits as a late night snack and breakfast and tea are wet from the tins.  The biscuits we use are of high quality and its main ingredients are ground fish/chicken meal instead of grains, but I am indeed concerned about his water intake and I would never make it into a main diet.  Perhaps it is a good idea to eliminate the biscuits from his diet eventually.  Although he is not "addicted" he does love and enjoy his biscuits, so the attached link about transformation from dry to wet diet may come in handy too.
(Also he loves bread and especially cornetti (Italian sweet croissant) and he usually have a bite almost daily, probably have to cut down on it even when he recovers fully....Oliver will hate me for it!) 
While he is on antibiotics (another week or so) probably his appetite will be much smaller than usual, so I will proceed with caution and try not to force him too much, but I will try to have him eat something a little at a time and see how it goes.
I have been giving him plain fish or chicken fillet occasionally but I may do that more often, that may make up for the lack of bread!! 

[Den]

But that's for animals with CRF  the animals are already very poorly and starvation is going to put much more stress on their little bodies.

[Fire Fox]

  welcome back! I have NO experience in these matters, but was reading about bladder problems in cats this afternoon and the following stuck in my mind
"The Best Food for a CRF Cat ... is a food that the cat will eat. I'm not trying to be flippant here. You can source the most expensive, organic, wholesome food on the planet, but if your cat would rather starve than eat it, it is of no use whatsoever.
In 11 guidelines for conservatively treating chronic kidney disease (2007) Polzin D, Veterinary Medicine December 2007, Dr Polzin makes the shocking observation that "in many or most dogs and cats with chronic kidney disease, death or euthanasia results directly or indirectly from starvation."
http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm

And if it's any consolation, my research this afternoon was triggered by Noah (ex-stray, as greedy as any dog) refusing breakfast. Turns out he doesn't like salmon!

[Gillian Harvey]

My Ben had this problem about 6 yrs ago, and also blocked needing emergency treatment. I tried him on the prescription diet but he wouldnt eat it, I did a lot of research into the condition following this thinking there had to be a better way. Instead I changed all the cats onto wet diet only (they were previously eating all dry) and then onto a raw diet - now they have a variety of tinned, pouch and raw, with only a little dry as treats. Ben has never had a further problem.

This condition is usually down to several factors, not always just one thing and I remember reading recently that bacterial infection as a cause IS more common than was previously thought. But other factors include being overweight, low activity, low moisture throughput, stress. The carbohydrates commonly used in most dry, and many wet foods also don't help because they alkalise the urine - which should actually be slightly acidic - this is achieved by feeding a wet diet, preferably with a good meat content and NO carbs (cereals, rice etc).

Have a look at this info on the subject, its written by vet Lisa Pierson http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

When I look back Ben's problems werent just diet related, he was stressed at the time as I was preparing for a house move, so I was stressed with all that led up to the move, and the move itself - and he must have been pickiing up on that. 

[dolcetta46]

I'm having problems with the search function at the moment [it's not doing anything  ] this is the latest thread about this issue, where JO Ripley too had crystals and didn't want to eat his food.

http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,35480.0.html

Thanx Den!!!    I was trying and having the same problem!!!  Now I will go and read the thread....

[Dawn F]

we only used senior because he was senior!  if he had been 3 I would have used normal felix, he was just refusing to eat and it was horrible

[Den]

I'm having problems with the search function at the moment [it's not doing anything  ] this is the latest thread about this issue, where JO Ripley too had crystals and didn't want to eat his food.

http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,35480.0.html

[dolcetta46]

Oh Clare and please don't feel bad, I know that you understand the dilemma of this kind I still remember all the misadventure between you and Max...   Oliver is just such a super spoiled hard headed brat, I always let him have his way when he didn't like the food I gave him, perhaps I should have trained him a little better for such occasions!! 

[dolcetta46]

thank you Gill, Den, Clare and Dawn for your advice and support!!  Dawn, is Felix Senior of a similar formula as s/d-s/o?  He is only 3 and half still and seems like unjust to feed him a "senior food" but whatever works, I would try anything if he would eat it!! 
It is strange, he seems to have a hunger pang, he does at times act restless as he always does when the munch-time approaches, but he turns around 180° and run away as soon as he sees/smells that "evil food". 
His "depression" is not so serious yet, he does show the same interest and hurriedly approach with googoo eyes when he sees us eating our food, and he still likes to attack any dangling ribbons and strings, and still likes to "chat". 
You guys are right a few factors like antibiotics and all the stress from inside out -- he usually picks up on it quickly when I get stressed out, especially when I am stressed and fret too much about him...-- are perhaps hindering his eating habit, but he has been such a hearty eater (although fussy) it's so disconcerting when he stops eating.  I am going to locate the thread you were talking about Den... thanks again!! 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

just to emphasise that he must eat cos two days withoiut food could cause liver problems.

afraid your vet is living in fantasy land and would run with dens advice but if he then still wont eat this stuff, then any food is better than none.

I hope some one else can giv ee you some options ref what food is best.

Stress can be a source of so many problems and if he gets stressed by hating the food or you trying to force feed  then this could make matters worse.

Loads of good luck 

[clarenmax]

Sorry to hear that Oliver's still being fussy hunnie, shame the gravy idea didnt work either  I was sure that would tempt him 

I know they always say 'oh s/he will eat when they are hungry', and I guess they will eventually, but its not something I'd be happy doing 

Just wish I could give you some useful advice 

[Dawn F]

my bridge boy Bluto was on prescription food for struvite stones for years (probably shouldn't have been but London vet and all that) anyway one day he just gave up eating it
we tried him on felix senior and he spent the last 6 years of his life on that with no more flare up of stones

[Den]

Oh Oliver  and Licia 

Seems to be very common. There are a few threads with cats refusing to eat s/d or s/o. Memphis was on it for a month, luckily for me he ate it with no problem.

I know it's really hard for you  and he does have to eat. I'm wondering if the frequent food changes (to tempt him to eat) has had an effect. They do say that with some cats constantly chopping and changing creates fussy cats, although not all. If he's fussy to begin with ....

It doesn't matter about his size, he can't go without food in that tum. If he's depressed he isn't going to want to eat.

It could very well be the antibiotic which is making him not want to eat. I believe they can make them feel sick and as a result lose their appetite. Maybe see what happens if you leave a few hours between feeding and medicating and see what happens. Memphis didn't have any antibiotics when he had crystals, apparently most times the crystals aren't caused by anything that antibiotics will have an effect on ... ie no bacteria.

Will have a look for some old threads for you 

[dolcetta46]

I haven't been on this forum for a good while but now I am at my wits end, I really could use some advice on the dilemma we are facing.
My cat, 3 1/2 old neutered indoor male of 8kg (before the problem began) had an issue with bladder stones and he was hospitalized for 2 days last week.  We brought him home Saturday evening with an instruction for a strict diet on Hills S/D for a month, with 10 days of antibiotic pill (Enrox Flavour 50mg).  Upon arrival there was no issue, he seems to wee almost as usual now, and he ate the food without any fuss, which was quite a surprise for a super fussy cat (perhaps because he refused to eat at the vet, he was desperate enough).  This continued also Sunday morning, food was finished even with the pill lodged inside. 
It seemed too easy to be true, and indeed it was.  Starting Sunday evening he decided the food was too gross for his refined taste and he stopped eating it altogether.  The following two days he ate practically nothing, we tried both wet and dry version, tried mixing in some gravy or broth to no avail. 
Yesterday we found a bag of buscuits of an equivalent formula from Royal Canin (S/O) so we tried it it had gone slightly well he ate about half a bowl, but then we gave him the pill and half an hour later he hurled everything.   
I am not sure if it was a reaction to the food, or the pill, or combination, ironically he holds the pill when we give it when he is not eating. 
I rang the vet this morning for some advice but the response was rather curt, he HAS to eat the prescribed food or else, period.  Nothing else can be fed.  This was even more curtly repeated when I asked "but if he refuses to eat?" 
At least the doc confirmed that the pill can be administered even without the food, but how long can he go on like this?  Of course he is quite big and my partner is quite calm saying "look at all that excess, he can go easily without eating for a week and more.  He will eat when he is hungry enough."  Perhaps he is right, after all he did eat it when he got home.  But as a doting worrywart mum he already looks gaunt and depressed and it is getting even more of a torture for me looking at him like this than for himself!!
Has anyone gone through a similar problem?  Is there some kind of solution which I am not seeing?  Do we resort to a drip feed if this continues?  And when to decide?  Any advice or suggestion will be appreciated...