Dentals and Extractions

[madpants]

Fingers crossed

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Hope they are nice and good 

[Corporal Smokey]

good luck! 

[madpants]

I'm going to visit another vets which is closer to me and has been recommended by my neighbours.
I'm going to see what i think of them first, before i book him in, but i don't think it would make alot of difference to Merlin, as
fortunately he has hardley seen my existing vets! (only for his annula check-up!)

I'll let you know how i get on.

[Corporal Smokey]

Thanks Mark for the extra link - I am wondering if i should ring around some other vets or stick with the tried and tested.

That's sort of the dilemma I started with but I've decided to save up for a month or two and go to my regular vet. They're pricey but have a hospital and a fabulous team of vets. I couldn't live with myself if I took the Corporal to Dr Nick.

I'm by no means rich but the way I look at these things is in comparison to a car. If you needed £200 to fix a breakdown you'd find it somewhere (and huff and puff about it...) and a car isn't nearly as important as a furry family member 

[Mark]

That's the problem - having someone you trust doing the job. I don't suppose it would hurt to ask another vet. When we moved here, the vet next door (we are at war with over noise now) charged £80 to take one tooth out. I don't know if they were trying to butter us up it was a friendly gesture being next door. I know the anaesthetic etc is the major part of the bill.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I think that sounds expensive but it depends what extras are included. like iv fluids, aftercare at no extra cost , abs etc

I so agree with Edds last sentence. I think if possible its important to use someone who knows the cat.

[madamcat (Edd)]

My friend's siamese has just had a dental with 3 extractions and that was £180 - surrey/hampshire borders. Also the OAP who I helped transport her cat to the Putney hospital had a quote for £240 for 3 extractions and dental scale from a private vet - that was Surrey.

Besides the procedure of basic clean and and any tooth extractions, things like pre-op bloods and extra support during the procedure (if required) can add quite a bit to the cost.

So think it can vary quite a bit and its a bit of a dilema as to go with who you know and who knows you cat. Or a vet who has never seen them before. 

[madpants]

Thanks Mark for the extra link - I am wondering if i should ring around some other vets or stick with the tried and tested.

[Mark]

Sounds really expensive. I think I paid about £200 about 4 years ago -so that would be super-inflation 

Also found this thread from less than 2 years ago.
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/29026-teeth-removal-cost-2.html

[madpants]

I took Merlin for his annual health check yesterday, and the vet told me he needs two back teeth removing, as it is very inflamed
and sore looking. The vet has quoted me £320! ouch! Does this sound right?

[Fire Fox]

Nothing that I have heard of - then again, they get a raw diet 

I have heard of a tiger being given Zylkene

  What sort of dose would you need? 

[Fire Fox]

It's a while since I looked at the research but AFAIK the mode of action is the same as with cystitis. I can vouch for the efficacy of cranberry juice, both acute and chronic. Was recommended for recurrent cystitis and I experienced relief fast; once drinking cranberry juice regularly I noticed improvements in oral health (not placebo as I was unaware of that 'side effect'  ). Agree with Mark that it is better than antibiotics, as ABs wipe out the beneficial gut flora that form part of the immune system. Obviously if there is an abscess or extraction ABs may be a necessary evil - I'm a scientist not Gillian McKeith. 

Summary of a paper presented at a dental conference in 2006
"Cranberries harbor a plethora of biological compounds such as flavonoids (e.g., quercetin and myricetin), phenolic acids (benzoic acid), anthocyanins, condensed tannins, among others. The researchers have shown that many of these substances can: (i) inhibit enzymes associated with the formation of the plaque polysaccharide matrix, (ii) block the adherence of bacteria to surfaces, (iii) prevent acid formation, and (iv) reduce acid tolerance of cariogenic organisms. The next step in their research is to identify the specific active constituents in cranberries that could be useful as anti-caries/anti-plaque agents."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/06/060629123234.htm

As the vet has given the Corporal six months to improve his dental health he presumably doesn't think the gingivitis is an immediate health risk. I'd throw the works at the situation - eliminate carbs, add soft raw bones, Plaque off plus cranberry extract - even if you only get a 50% result that means any procedures can be conservative and/ or carried out less frequently. You still have the option to abandon ship and go for the full dental at any point.

[Mark]

did someone mention cranberry extract? I've seen that in treats. How does that work then?

It is the sugar in Cranberry that can help bacterial cystitis (not heard of it being used for dental, although maybe it works in the same way  ). It is called d-mannose. It sticks to the walls of the urinary tract and prevents e.coli from sticking to it, so it gets flushed through before it gets a chance to colonise.....apparently  (we did this in animal biology last year)
http://www.justbuyonline.co.uk/natural-d-mannose-powder.html?gclid=CJDQw5bppaUCFdP92Aod72mDJQ there are other links with a ref to a cat dose -1g a day or something and I think it is tasteless/odourless - the great thing is, it is harmless and has to be better than ABs? -how they can charge so much for basically sugar is beyond me 

As for the Zylkene, no idea how they give it - probably in a lump of meat 

We visited WHF last year and they told us about the Zylkene - also that Vicky Halls was treating the tiger as well 

I'm all ears when they talk cat  (we did a genetics thing on Florida cougars in Breeding & genetics today  )

[Corporal Smokey]

I have heard of a tiger being given Zylkene

Amazing. What do they do, put it in whatever furry critter he's having for lunch or do they pop a hand on each side, flick the mouth open and pop it to the back of the throat (like the vets [and some of you amazing hands-on rescue types] make look so blooming easy)?

Imagine how much a tiger-sized feliway would be... 


Anyway. I've decided that I am very happy with the level of service my vets offer. I know he is in good hands with them so I'm going to wait a few more weeks 'til I can afford it (taking us up to the 6 months the vet said) and get him booked in early next year.

I couldn't forgive myself if I saved myself a few quid and he didn't get the love he gets at the usual place. In the meantime did someone mention cranberry extract? I've seen that in treats. How does that work then?

[Mark]

Mark you might be able to tell us a little about dental health in big cats, or know a (wo)man who can? Be interesting to know if zoos use any supplements akin to Plaque-off or cranberry extract.

Nothing that I have heard of - then again, they get a raw diet 

I have heard of a tiger being given Zylkene

[Fire Fox]

Arguably some bone-in raw meat is best as it is what felines have evolved to thrive on - for humans the research indicates a balanced wholefood diet is the healthiest. However as you say, some cats won't entertain raw, others are so inbred their jaws do not function properly, others have few teeth by the time they are taken into a rescue. One does also have to consider practicalities, I don't find raw meals at all difficult to prepare but I wouldn't want to ask that of a cat sitter. Likewise you wouldn't want to leave minced raw in a timed feeder. 

Mark you might be able to tell us a little about dental health in big cats, or know a (wo)man who can? Be interesting to know if zoos use any supplements akin to Plaque-off or cranberry extract.

[Mark]

I agree with Gill re kibble after dentals. Clapton had about 5 dentals over the years and each time, he started eating kibble first - bearing in mind he never really ate dry normally, he obviously realised it was easier to manage by just swallowing. I can see how wet can get into sore gums and make them worse.

I know different vets have different opinions, but my first vet in London (the vet CP North London homing centre use) likened wet food to a toffee sticking in mouths because of its texture. I suppose no factory-made food is perfect and a raw diet is better all-round. If I ever had kittens or very young cats, I would raw-feed, but only ever taken on adult cats that are set in their ways - eg Kylie - she has never eaten a piece of real meat in the 8 1/2 years I have had her - she would starve if she didn't get her dry food.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

If you have a good vet that you know and trust, I would stay with them. Just cos a price is cheap doent make it necessarily mean that their care is wonderful.

 I wouldnt remove dry food as he needs to be able to eat what he likes especially if he is fussy eater and some cats dont like.............mine, or tolerate these very high meat foods cos they are just too rich.

If a cat has a sore mouth , ironically its easy for them to eat biscuits cos they can just swallow them and wet food gets in the sore places and they cant remove.

It depends on your insurance as to whether changing vets is a problem but it shouldnt be, but with most vets you have to change permantently so you cant keep chopping and changing.

I want a high level of care for both my cats and also me, ie they will talk to me and explain things and they must also handle the cats in a way that I like.......ie no scruffing. This happens at both vets I have used and neither have scruffed Sasa.

I have seen both handling the cats and neither attempts to scruff because they say it makes them more scared and with big cats hurts them.

[Fire Fox]

Diet is a whole other issue! He refuses to eat loads of stuff I think due to kibble shape. He has all sorts of problems getting to the kibble and half the time lifts it with his paw. He likes the Oral one because it's got huge mouthfuls he can get hold of. Bizarrely the only food that contradicts this is wet i/d which he loves...and isn't supposed to be eating 

We've tried Orijen, Ziwi Peak, Arden Grange, Applaws, PAH 80% meat, Acana and he sniffs, noms a bit and then it disappears into Chester's tummy. Then Chester does a big whippy poo because he ignores the i/d and so it goes on... 

I don't have a clue what the difference between the prescription diets is so that is going right over my head!  The obvious answer is remove kibble entirely - most contain grains/ cereals/ which will feed the plaque causing bacteria. I am not talking about fancy brands, there are several commercial canned foods that contain little or no carbohydrates. I am sure there is a sensible reason why that is not possible?

[Mark]

no chlorawhatsit in there, don't worry

This is the stuff to avoid. It looks as if the concentration is very low - 0.049%, compared to 0.2% in corsodyl - 4 x as much, however they warn you not to swallow corsodyl 
http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dental-care-products-c-11/vet-aquadent-anti-plaque-solution-for-cats-dogs-p-1349

[Corporal Smokey]

can't remember where you're based but yourvet (pet vaccination clinic) posted the following in their newsletter


Dental prices include pre medication, full general anaesthetic, full scale & polish and dental assessment. Plus 5 days of aftercare antibiotics (if needed) and FREE post dental check up following the procedure:

Cat (Full scale & polish & meds) £45
 
Dog <35kgs (Full scale & polish & meds)  £60
 
Dog >35kgs (Full scale & polish & meds)  £80

midlands based before you all rush......

WOW! Now I know I said my vet is ace and all but those prices really are good. My priority is level of service but if you use them I'm sure they're good. I'll do some research but I'd rather have a personal recommendation as I'm not 100% happy using another vet to my regular one.

Probably a stupid question but it won't affect my insurance going somewhere else will it? My insurance doesn't cover dental work or anything but with medical records an' all.

Thanks Angie xx

[Angiew]

can't remember where you're based but yourvet (pet vaccination clinic) posted the following in their newsletter


Dental prices include pre medication, full general anaesthetic, full scale & polish and dental assessment. Plus 5 days of aftercare antibiotics (if needed) and FREE post dental check up following the procedure:

Cat (Full scale & polish & meds) £45
 
Dog <35kgs (Full scale & polish & meds)  £60
 
Dog >35kgs (Full scale & polish & meds)  £80

midlands based before you all rush......

[Corporal Smokey]

I use Corsadyl and it makes me sick if any gets swallowed and really hurts my stomach

Bleurgh. I've used it when I have wisdom tooth probs. Numbs everything it lands on. It's is great but it's a bit weird.

Anyway, I'm gonna get Mr Smokey in to the vets the first week in December after payday. And then have boil in the bag turkey on Christmas day 

I'll report back but if you do have any other dental stories and advice, partcularly about weird-shaped-mouth cats who have lived long plaque-free lives to tell the tale, please do let me know, I'd do anything to keep Mr Smokey's gnashers trouble free and it once again reminds me that we shouldn't play god when it comes to making persian (or any other pedigree) babies 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I use Corsadyl and it makes me sick if any gets swallowed and really hurts my stomach

[Corporal Smokey]

no chlorawhatsit in there, don't worry

[Mark]

Going back to the stuff you add to the water, can you check if the ingredient is Chlorhexidine. I just googled to get more info and there is a lot of stuff about cats having bad reactions to it, including breathing problems and deafness when it was used as a disinfectant in surgery - There is even info about problems using it with cats on the Wiki page about the drug.

[fluffybunny]

Ball park, how much am I looking at? I seem to remember the vet saying about £180 plus about £20-£40 per extraction depending on how bad it is. Does that sound about right or have I made that up? My vet's is usually on the pricey side but they are ace.

Sounds about right, I think I paid about £180 for a dental with an extraction, that included pre-op bloods and I think it was about £25 for each additional extraction required.  Geoffrey's was slightly more than Millys (about £25 more) because he is over 6kg so they charge more for the additional drugs used in big heffers like him.  I don't remember exactly but it was definitely less than £400 for the pair of them, so the price you recall does seem to be about right. 

[Mark]

I remember paying £80 total for a single extraction a few years ago.

I would be very wary of the stuff you put in water - It contains the same thing as Corsodyl - chlorhexidine gluconate. It is very good at killing bacteria, but if they are swallowing it, it will kill off good as well as bad bacteria in the stomach - which could cause diarrhea etc. (this is my own reckoning but seems to make sense)

PS - I use Lidl own 'alcohol-free' mouthwash which has the same ingredient, only it is 49p for 500ml rather than £3+ for 200ml 

The warning says do not swallow! (in bold with exclamation) - can be used by children over 12  if they are able to rinse

I think the problem is, animal stuff isn't regulated well enough.

[Corporal Smokey]

I took him a couple of months ago and the vet said give it six months of Plaque-off and we'll have another look. He just won't touch anything that's been near Plaque-off. I've been using the stuff you add to water and his teeth/gums don't look worse but they certainly aren't getting any better.

I think as long as you lot tell me that anaesthetic should be fairly safe I'll have him done. It'll be a nice Christmas present for him (not for my wallet )!

Ball park, how much am I looking at? I seem to remember the vet saying about £180 plus about £20-£40 per extraction depending on how bad it is. Does that sound about right or have I made that up? My vet's is usually on the pricey side but they are ace.

Thanks all 

[Desley (booktigger)]

I would definitely get him checked by the vet and see if the vet thinks it needs doing yet. I dont think they do need more dentals once you start, and especially not if you get the cleaning done initially and then use things like Logic Gel/Plaque Off/chicken wings to keep tartar levels down. I have had plenty of dentals done on older cats, including one who was very high risk due to untreated hyper-t and liver issues, so the fact he is only 5 means he should have no issues.

[Corporal Smokey]

As far as teeth cleaning is concerned try raw bone in meat if you haven't already; chicken necks and meaty carcasses (ribs) are softer than wing bones. Secondly you could try cranberry extract which has the same effect on dental bacteria as bacterial cystitis, I can personally vouch for the efficacy on both as well as there being research!    Thirdly you might switch to a diet completely free of grains/ cereals as these feed the plaque causing bacteria just as sugars do and felines have no nutritional requirement for carbohydrates.

Diet is a whole other issue! He refuses to eat loads of stuff I think due to kibble shape. He has all sorts of problems getting to the kibble and half the time lifts it with his paw. He likes the Oral one because it's got huge mouthfuls he can get hold of. Bizarrely the only food that contradicts this is wet i/d which he loves...and isn't supposed to be eating 

We've tried Orijen, Ziwi Peak, Arden Grange, Applaws, PAH 80% meat, Acana and he sniffs, noms a bit and then it disappears into Chester's tummy. Then Chester does a big whippy poo because he ignores the i/d and so it goes on... 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Its more like anesthetic caused CRF than dental problems I think.

No I dont think that once having the plaque removed it needs to be done more often and Ducha who is 17 had his teeth sorted about 3 years ago is still absolutely fine.

Anesthetics are very safe for olderr cats now but they need to be put on fluids.

[Fire Fox]

As far as teeth cleaning is concerned try raw bone in meat if you haven't already; chicken necks and meaty carcasses (ribs) are softer than wing bones. Secondly you could try cranberry extract which has the same effect on dental bacteria as bacterial cystitis, I can personally vouch for the efficacy on both as well as there being research!    Thirdly you might switch to a diet completely free of grains/ cereals as these feed the plaque causing bacteria just as sugars do and felines have no nutritional requirement for carbohydrates.

[Mark]

My vet assures me that anaesthetics are safe now but prefers to put older cats on fluids beforehand.

[Corporal Smokey]

I'm happy to get him done and after all that's why god made credit cards but my concern was more about weighing the risks of anaesthetic and repeated dentals* against using something like Logic. My vet was saying pretty much the same thing but I'm not sure how good a toothpaste is at blasting the plaque that's already there.

Hmmm...

*am I right in thinking once he's been done once he'll have to go more often?

[Mark]

I agree re getting dentals done and using something like logic as a maintenance treatment. OH had only just got Clapton when we met. His mouth was manky and he had brown dribble. I took him to the vet and he had his first dental then. I am convinced the mouth probs are what started his CRF. Mouth problems can cause all kinds of health issues where the toxins are going into the system - not to mention the pain/discomfort caused.

I am pretty peed off that a rescue would rehome a cat without sorting it out first.

[clarenmax]

Another Logic Gel fan here too, Poot loves it and comes running as soon as he hears me take it out of the box

[fluffybunny]

If they're looking icky I'd get them done tbh.  Bacteria from bad teeth can travel around and collect around organs - several years ago my vet reckoned that Sooty's heart murmur had been caused or exacerbated by dental bacteria.  I think things like plaque off etc are useful to start using after teeth have been sorted, but I don't think they're terribly helpful if there are already things that need doing.

I've had plenty of cat dentals done - Sooty was 18.5 when he had his last one - and have never had a problem.  In fact Sooty used to really perk up after his, his teeth were clearly bothering him at quite a low level but it was only really noticeable afterwards.  Both Geoffrey and Milly have had dentals and extractions in the past 3 years and again no problems there either.  It's expensive but worth doing I think.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

It's a toothpaste

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dental-care-products-c-11/logic-oral-hygiene-gel-pet-toothpaste-70g-p-49

But you don't need to brush with it.  You can add it to food or smear it on a paw.  Or if they like it, like my boys, you can just let them lick it from the tube    I have to have 2 tubes on the go at any one time so that they can have one each otherwise they fight over it    Good job I've got 2 hands.