Need Some advice for Sasa

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Ummmmmmmmmmm regular abs wouldnt be a struggle lol..............it would be impossible 

Today went to look for the butchers classic food but it was only sold in large tins in packs of 6 or 12, didnt have a chance to look in PAH cos had to drive another 20 miles to get the turkey pate........why are tescos so useless!

I saw packs of disgusting chicken wings lol.....but they were over a kilo in weight and just couldnt face having them hanging around cos there were so many in there, actually not sure I could face giving them to a cat........sigh

Who would want over a kilo of chicken wings?

[Fire Fox]

the huge improvement in dental health is attributed to fluoridisation - which ought to protect animals' teeth too, or those who drink mostly tapwater

it does nothing, alas, for gums

  My brother and I are living proof that fluoride works wonders as we were given supplements as children - my brother had his first (only) two fillings in his early thirties, I am in my late thirties and booked in for my first in a couple of weeks.

My understanding was that in the past it wasn't simply about the teeth needing to be removed, it was expected and routine. Even with severe gingivitis in humans, extraction is not necessarily advocated these days. Obviously getting antibiotics down Sasa regularly would be a struggle but the literature suggests cranberry extract is effective.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Great ideas all and I am watching her and waiting, due to a mishap with the food today I am not sure what she has eaten if anything!

Found she has being using the snug hut thingy I have outside but didnt know till she came rushing out when I went to put up my deckchair for a rest 

If we get to the vets again any time soon I am going to tell the  vet I want her teeth looking at properly, I dont want them all out but do need her gums treating if she still is the same but am not going to take her unless I think she needs to go. cos its not worth scaring her and making her so stressed she hates me even from a distance.

Will look for that food tomorrow to try  but chicken wings are out I think cos I dont like them, we dont have a butchers.........dont have much really........and definately dont want a pack of the bloomin things LOL, one would be good though........sigh

Thanks all for your input cos would not have thought of all the things you have said 

[Kay and Penny]

the huge improvement in dental health is attributed to fluoridisation - which ought to protect animals' teeth too, or those who drink mostly tapwater

it does nothing, alas, for gums

[Fire Fox]

I have returned to this thread because something was niggling at me ... Only a couple of generations ago, it was commonplace for people in the west to have dentures as early as their twenties. It seems rather backwards for some veterinarians to be recommending much the same (minus the dentures!  ). If it were Noah I'd be happy for a few teeth to be pulled in one operation due to the general anaesthetic, but I would feel much the same as you, Gill, that I wouldn't want healthy teeth to be lost any more than I'd want to 'declaw' him *shudders*.

[JackSpratt]

Sorry Gill, no advice just wanted to let you know I hope you got enough ideas on here to put across a good argument to the vet.

Years ago a vet did the same to me with Toby; they told me he NEEDED his teeth out so he had a dental that took quite a lot of his teeth. Some years later I took him to the vets I go to now and they told me it was gingivitis in his gums and he'd need an injection every once in a while when it flared up to fight the infection. They told me his teeth removal was unnecessary as the problem was not his teeth it was his gums. I felt awful....poor Tobes going through that for no real reason. Taught me to challenge the vets if I had an instinct what they were telling me was wrong.

[clarenmax]

Hi Gill I've only just seen this 

Can't add any more than has already been said, just wanted to add some  really x

[Desley (booktigger)]

Gill, I went to a local butcher for my chicken wings, he asked me how many and I said 'enough for 3 cats'!! I think he gave me about 6, but they are tiny, so it wasn't expensive. I have seen packs of them in Asda, but depends on whether you would fancy eating chicken wings if they didn't like them.

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

Gill, sending you all some snoozles to start the day. 

[Fire Fox]

Cranberry extract is beneficial for gingivitis, working the same way as it does for cystitis - cranberry is in some of the higher end dry foods but I don't know whether the concentration is high enough or whether those brands will be eaten! I have fluorosis and eight veneers on my teeth, both of which predispose me to my teeth rotting from the inside out. I am supposed to have regular x-rays: maybe an x-ray could be tried for Sasa?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thank you Desley and Carol and everyone

Sasa seems to be fine except when she sees me and shes gonneee very smartly through the flap.

So Carol yes I think I am doing exactly what you say 

Desley I just been to Tescoes sigh and there is a PAH opposite so will have a look, gotta go back around wednesday cos they didnt have more than one tray of what Sasa and Misa are eating at present..............they both were not eating felix again so they are on gormet pate turkey flavour.

Sasa  and all of mine are very suspicious of new food and if I could buy one chicken wing I would try it but dont know anywhere to get one. I have tried them with something raw before and what ever it was got a paws down 

She is even suspicious of me watchinh her through the window of the kitchen Sue, afraid Carol is so right.

I also know Desley is right because Kocka was eating fine one minute and the next her face was all swollen on one side and in too much pain to eat.

Sasa is not looking any thinner so she is eating 

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

How're you both today, Gill?   

[Desley (booktigger)]

Gill, I have seen Classic in Asda, Tesco, Morrisons, Pets at Home and Wilkinsons - I know you struggle with supermarkets, so hopefully you have one of those near, or maybe get PEts at Home to deliver? It does help reduce red gums, so might help as an interim measure.The only other thing I would say is that cats can hide mouth problems very well - I was shocked when Sam had his 3 monthly check up last year and he had really bad mouth ulcers, he was still eating everything with no issues.If you ask the vet for ab's, Antirobe are the best for mouth issues, and can be opened and the powder mixed with food.

[CarolM (Wendolene)]

Sorry you're going through all this stress with Sasa Gill. 

My advice, and its probably controversial, would be to nothing at the moment.  Well, not exactly nothing, but what is known in medical circles as 'watchful waiting' which amounts to the same thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sasa went to the vet for routine boosters and you had not been aware of anything wrong with her prior to that? Because she is the cat she is the visit has upset her and you, and the added worry of the news about her teeth is probably making you over-sensitive to her behaviour at the moment.  Let things settle down for a few weeks (unless of course she is in obvious distress).  The next thing is to get a proper diagnosis which, in Sasa's case, will inevitably involve some sort of sedation.  Until you have a diagnosis you are confident with you cannot make any further decision.  One step at a time.   She may or may not have a problem so take a deep breath and try to relax (easier said than done I know). 

[paddypaws101]

Would she eat a raw chicken wing?? The abrasion  of the bones is great for teeth and gums and may help.

[Liz]

Gill we crush the ACP tablets - the cats have their own pestle and mortar and put in to Tuna in brine and they wolf it down - even dear Ace my totally unhandlable boy - his weight is a guestimate as he hasn't been to the vets in 5 years since he lost his bits!

Depending on the weight of the cat they can keep them drowsey fro a couple of hours - we had all ours drugged and caged in an hour and and after a 3 hour drive to their new home were still drowsey and we have some rather large boys!

Our domestic Floddy has no teeth at all and grooms just fine - we also have a couple of longhaired ferals who haven't been near a brush in their lives and both manage ok

[puggy1975 Zoe]

Gill tescos where i live sell butchers, Its in orange cans and its just shows as Classic with a cat on the front. Just look for orange packs, Mark sais a while ago it was good for gums and as Tyler has quite red gums i tried it and they definately look a bit better. There is loads of jelly in it and i thinkin its to do with the Jelly. Its not expensive either which is good and has no soya or cereal

Zoe

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thank you all for the input and gives me loads to think about.

I have just started givging her gourmet pate again, she is loving it but who knows how long for LOL

She also eats biscuits but will have a look for that Butchers food, where is it sold? Not Tescoes I think.

How long do those tabs keep them drowsy Liz,,,,,,,,,,,,Not sure I could get her to eat to a time though and Misa probably would be the one snoring  Do they smell or taste cos she is a fussy eater.

She is just very wary of me at present which is gonna take at least a couple of months to wear off and agree Sue, the vet must sit down with me and talk this through, I reckon he is maybe thinking of a quick and one time option but for her not to be able to groom would be a nightmare and make her very unhappy. Her fur is long and very thick and very soft. It does get matted a bit sometimes but she deals with it, unlike Misa who just leaves his!

I have never heard of that clinic Trigger, do you have a link or anything?

All of you are giving such good feedback, thanks

[Sue P (Paddysmum)]

Gill, I echo Rosella on this one.  And I think you have to be willing and able to question everything you're told by your vet until you're 100% happy that the advice you have is as good as it gets.  I also know cats, like Liz's examples, who have no teeth, and are unimpaired in all normal functions, BUT - absolutely no harm in asking the questions until you have that sense of having exhausted all possible combinations of solutions.  Recalling Paddy's dental issues prior to his stroke, it was a real concern, but he was prescribed Ab's, and they did help.

That was before he developed the tumour.  Our vet diagnosed squamous cell carcinoma but was wrong - that was almost two years ago, and no way would Paddy still be here if that was the correct diagnosis.

I weighed up our options at the time, made my own enquiries, and decided to let Paddy set the pace.  Undoubtedly he has a mouth cancer, but it hasn't taken the course predicted, so there's always room for those questions.  As her slave, you know Sasa better than anyone, and you need to be able to talk through your feelings with a vet who will listen.   Ask about AB's for sure.      Paddy sends a snoozle. 

[Kay and Penny]

gill, there is a specialist Cat Clinic in Cardiff if you want to go farther afield for a second opinion

it is one of the very few places in the UK which does radioactive thyroid treatment, so ought to be top drawer

[Janeyk]

Poor Sasa,  personally I would go with your vets advice and if all need to come out I'd go with that too.   There's little worse than toothache and I know from my oldies how much better they are when their teeth have been removed - although they may have some problems grooming I still think worth it.  Byron suffered stomach problems before her dental and that wasn't good and Schui had such poorly mouth and Pepper's wasn't good too.   I suppose it depends how bad her mouth is and if it's not looking good then may be best to do a good dental to prevent further problems.  They are just my thoughts though, hope that you can decide what's best for Sasa though can't be easy decision for a cat with some feral in her as I care for ferals myself I can understand your worries 

[Desley (booktigger)]

I would be surprised at a full dental just because of a red line on her gums - I wonder if the vets theory is that as she is quite hard to handle, do them all in one go to avoid her having to go back? Cat's do manage well with no teeth, but Ginger couldnt groom himself as well after (he had short hair but very thick), and they also can't bite their claws down as well, which could be a problem for Sasa if she can't keep them worn down outside (cant' remember how much you said she goes out). I know yours are fussy with food, but you could try her on some Butchers Classic, it is very good for helping red gums - and isn't that expensive to try either, some places sell individual tins, or you could buy a box of pouches (round here they are about £3 a box).

[Liz]

Gill sorry for Sasa's problems - I would try and get the vet to give you ACP Tablets - the nice little yellow pills that can be crushed up to a fine powder and sprinkled on food - 30 mins later one dozy cat - I still use them on occassion for the ferals and they do work

We have several ferals with little or no teeth and all crunch biscuits and have reco9vered well - sometimes I think the vet thinks if they take them all away with her being semi feral its done in one hit and no repeat visits and surgeries

I know when Ragamuffin had hers done last year a couple of extra ones were taken out to avoid this very thing - she is handlable to a point but does forget she isa aldy sometimes and she has only been on the inside for 2 years having spent her whole life outside

Think you need to write a list of questions for the vet and then weigh up the pro's and cons from the answers

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thank you all for your replies and seems that most are agreeing with me that probably all teeth neednt go.....yes my probs do not help Trigger you are right.

Afraid Sasa will not go anywhere near the cage, it was out and open for a couple of weeks but she knows better......sigh

She is a very smart cat, I guess living with ferals taught her to be very careful.

I may try that metacam thing and see if she acts different after a couple of days but she is a big strong cat and so bloomin heavy !

Afraid I dont totally trust this vets opinion any more and the only vets I trusted are now gone, there are no good cat vets, they are all dog vets.

However at least Richard can handle her cos she freezes when at vets but her booster and stuff need to be done a month or two away from her being anethnatised apparently cos would have left her there on Monday.

I agree a proper look at her teeth and gums needs to be done and I agree I think a abs jab should have been offered, although it may again been too many chemicals for her all at once.

She is a very gentle cat and she did hiss and lash out at me once on monday but dont think she meant to hurt, although I have 4 small scratches on my hand but she was just batting me really, despite being terrified.

Am interested in as many thoughts as you have thanks .

Just so worried about her, but the good thing is her and Misa went out hunting tonight but it must be getting cold cos both are in and asleep with the heat on 

[Gillian Harvey]

Can't understand why your vet is recommending all teeth out as the first option, did he think the gingivitis was that severe? Certainly if a tooth is rotten, it should come out, but I think its a bit over the top to suggest they all need to come out. 

[Mark]

Poor Sasa 

It is a difficult one. Naturally if she is in pain or there is any chance of the teeth causing more problems (rotten teeth can cause organ damage & arthritis) then they should really come out - but I agree than other things should be tried first. Is there any way you could get a 2nd opinion from a dental specialist? - Earlier this year, my vet said Kylie had some redness and we need to keep an eye out for any problems. I try to have a look now & then but she won't let me. I suppose it depends on the severity. I would be considering things like ABs, logic gel etc before taking the teeth out if she doesn't appear to be in pain.

[Rosella moggy]

Am just repeating this for you Gill so you have everything in one place  ....

As you know, Fred had all of his teeth except two extracted just after he arrived with us (RSPCA had said he needed serious dental work when we picked him up but I wanted 2nd opinion and for my vet to carry out work)

My vet (another Richard) said he felt it would be best to let him keep one upper and lower canine on same side for various reasons but I should be prepared for these to be extracted at some later date.  Fred does use those two teeth for lots of things esp grooming his longish fur.  His two teeth help him keep his fur in excellent condition.

That was 4 years ago and I keep fingers crossed each vet visit that the time hasn't yet come for those last two to be removed.  Obviously Sasa's case will be different in many ways; not least that she is a very difficult cat to handle (Fred is easy) but I would discuss that option with your vet in any event and see what he says.

Thing is Gill, you have to ask yourself whether you usually trust your vet's opinion?  Certainly I would be looking for long lasting ABs to be given in addition to usual pain relief after any operation. 

89898989898989I  (courtesy of Groucho) If you are dubious over vet's opinion,  I would be tempted to add some metacam to her food if poss for a few days and see if you notice any marked difference in her behaviour.  If you find that she perks up, vet may be right thinking she is a little uncomfortable? 

[Kay and Penny]

poor Gill - your own phobia about teeth must make this so difficult for you - and I'm not at all sure vets are united in their opinions on teeth and gum issues

one vet told me Tosker might need to have all his teeth out - three weeks later a different vet said he had only mild gingivitis which needs no treatment at the moment anyway

I think I would recommend for Sasa that she is anaethetized while her mouth is explored properly, and that any problems are sorted out permanently - or as permanently as possible

having treatment directly on her teeth has to be a better option for her than anything in the way of medication

[weesilvie]

Ooh, that's a tough one.  Teeth issues are one of those things where the teeth themselves can look fine from the outside but be rotten inside.  One of those these things its difficult to be sure of without a real good look!

I know its tough to get to Sasa, but could you request one of those 14 day antibiotic jags to see if the visible teeth issues (ie the red line) go away?  Would you be able to see if it had?  Then if it doesn't, you could resign yourself to taking her back for closer inspection.  If it does, then you leave it until next year's booster for the vet to have another look but keep a close eye on her in the meantime (as close as you can!) to see what you think her teeth mighht be up to.

I'm with you though, I don't like the idea of no teeth.  Do you know how old she is?  I know its probably difficult to get your head around, but you need to weigh up the benefits of whatever tretament she might or might not need and the stress of getting her to the vets however often it takes to sort iot out.  Only you know the answer to that!

Sorry, that's really no help, I'm rubbish!

[BazandGem]

Aaw poor Sasa 

Firstly - getting Sasa to the vet. Rossi hates being picked up particularly if there's a cat carrier involved. However he's very nosy so I used to leave his carrier open in the house and now by the time we need to go to the vet, he's quite happy to just walk straight in  - and of course run straight out again when we get home   

Not really sure about the teeth question, Bazza managed to groom himself with only 3 teeth but not sure how he'd have managed with none. He had most of the rest removed when he was neutered as all except his canines were rotten. Then one of them broke somehow so the vet just yanked the remains of that one out for him. He did fight quite a bit but think his massive paws gave him an advantage over the other cats in the area, regardless of how many teeth they had 

Not sure how Sasa would be about abs in food, but could you ask if the vet could prescribe something for you to pick up and attempt to feed it to her as an interim measure until she's ready to go back there for any extractions that might be necessary?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Please beare with me as want to put some background on Sasa first foir peeps who dont know her.

Sasa is now 11 yrs old and a semi feral who I cant touch or get closer than about 3 feet. She is not agressive but has a bad history after being found living with ferals.

She loves her creature comforts and living in a house as long as she is not shut in anywhere and all doors are open.

To get her to the vets I have to trap her in a corner and this time fot her booster etc took me 3 goes, twice last week but she eascaped and then 2 hrs of hell on monday. She gets so stressed abnd so do I but this means I cant medicate her or get her back to the vets easily.

On Monday the vet looked sideways at her teeth and she has a red line above her teeth in the gum, he believes that dental probs shoul;d be treated aggressively and said she needs them all out.

I am not happy with that as she grooms herself always and is a semi long hair and needs teeth to pull out small matts and burrs and such, also to eat grass and I feel without teeth this will cause here to have a bad quality of life. She also needs teeth to warn visitor cats not to come on her patch and has been in at least one fight coming off the better!

Soooooooooo I need to be prepared to argue my case with the vet and be able to counter his arguements.

She was not given an abs injection and none was offered om Monday and to be honest I felt what he said to be contradictory but was soooooo stressed after catching her and then travelling 25 miles with her.

He said that she would be in pain but then said she probably would be OK for a couple of months! Maybe only had it a couple of months.

I dont want her to be in pain but cant give her meds and dont really want her to lose all her teeth either..............He also said one of her top fangs was rotten...........it didnt look rotten to me!

So how do I play this and what is best for Sasa.

AS she was caught after 3 attempts and very stressed my thought initially was to leave her there to be treated but the vet said she need to get the booster, worming jab and stronghold out of her system first.

I dont feel she has been herself since she came back, could be the effects of all the chemicals, stressed about being trapped again, feeling unwell cos of mouth..................anything really and of course I am watching her closer too!

It usually takes nearly a year for her to get over me taking her to the vets and she is being very wary of me every time I go into the kitchen  cos she is living under the kitchen table at present!