ANOTHER PHONE CALL

[Ela]

This went way over my head!

It is a radio Merseyside programme on a Sunday morning called Hold your Plums and they ring a listener and ask a simple question like an Icelandic football team played Liverpool in some football final, where did they come from. The answers given are amazing and always they say Oh! I don't know Billy (the presenters are Billy & Wally) gives us a clue. We have 4 Hold your plums tapes they are so funny.

[Tiggy's Mum]

It's in the 'Analysis of other terms considered potentially unfair:'  The eigth one down, the office of fair trading is the best document to refer to, I posted that one because it is bascically a shortened version of that document.

As they say on a Programme Hold your Plumbs on Radio Merseyside. Give us a clue Billy or in your cats Tiggy's mum

This went way over my head!

[Ela]

Tiggy's Mum - Helen 

http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-10b---office-of-fair-trading-guidance-on-unfair-terms-in-tenancy-agreements.html

As they say on a Programme Hold your Plumbs on Radio Merseyside. Give us a clue Billy or in your cats Tiggy's mum

Have you any idea in which part anything to do with the keeping of animals is?

[Ela]

I'd also get her to contact her local councillors in the first instance, then if the council & councillors are useless contact the MP

She is cutting out the middle man and  going straight to her MP.

She'll not want to do anything that would invalidate her tenancy and give the council a chance to chuck her out.

Exactly

[Lyn-Su]

theres no reason why she cant keep them and just not tell the council
as there indoor cats noone is going to see them unless they were sitting in the window i suppose 

Because councils can be  (not all, but some). She'll not want to do anything that would invalidate her tenancy and give the council a chance to chuck her out.

I'd also get her to contact her local councillors in the first instance, then if the council & councillors are useless contact the MP (especially if the councillors or who runs the council are from another party than the MP).

Your councillor should then be able to lobby and speak to those involved and hopefully get it sorted out.

Also as there are elections due in just over a months time - councillors wont be willing to possibly lose votes so they should be very helpfull 

She should be able to contact her local councillor either through her council website or http://www.writetothem.com/?keyword=councillors&creativeid=521752599&gclid=CJj2qpL0mYsCFSdHEAodRSMyWw

Lyn x

[Ela]

theres no reason why she cant keep them and just not tell the council

There is every reason to tell the council.  A neighbour who knows there should not be cats could report you, as you say cats on windowsills will be seen. Also nowadays councils have Rangers At least in these parts, and they don't miss a trick. We work in close link with the council  when people have more cats than they are allowed or in eviction cases so I know how the council is round here. Also one of my Sisters is a Housing Officer in Sheffield so I do know how they work too.

[Cheesecat]

I had Cheese in a 'no pets' flat. The flat was unfurnished and falling apart (literally) so god knows why it was in the contract. A girl below had a huge dog too.

The landlord never came round, never met the man! Its funny how much you can hate someone without meeting them though... lol

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

theres no reason why she cant keep them and just not tell the council
as there indoor cats noone is going to see them unless they were sitting in the window i suppose 

[Ela]

and then get them both spayed too, poor things.

Oh yes, I am on to that big time, I think I frightened her a little when I told her the implications of not spaying, she like loads of people thought that because they were indoor  cats they could not get pregnant. As most of us know that is only a small part of the risk. The Owner was genuinely concerned  so I am sure they will get 'done'

[Desley (booktigger)]

Good luck in finding a way to get her to keep them - and then get them both spayed too, poor things.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I do hope she succeeds cos this is a change to the usual of wanting to get rid of the cats. More grease to her elbow and yours on this. 

[Ela]

Thank you I will have a good read tomorrow. At least I know she is not giving up her cats without a fight as we or rather I  came up with a plan of action earlier today.

[Tiggy's Mum]

Have a look at this document, it could be argued that a no pets clause is an unfair tenancy agreement...

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf

There has been a ruling in an EU country that this is the case so just quoting the office of fair trading's guidelines might make them back down.

Edited to add:  Ok that's 100 odd pages long!  Here's an exert on the pets issue from another website...

unreasonable ancillary obligations and restrictions

Terms that put tenants at risk of incurring contractual penalties that are more severe than is necessary to protect the landlord’s real interest in safeguarding his property generally will be considered unfair. Terms restricting a tenant’s use of a property should be reasonable in relation to the type and location of the property. Other examples of unreasonable prohibitions include terms against keeping pets. Such a term has been considered unfair under comparable legislation in another EU state because it could prevent a tenant from keeping a goldfish. A term prohibiting the keeping of pets that could harm the property or be a nuisance to other residents would be unlikely to meet the same objection.


http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-10b---office-of-fair-trading-guidance-on-unfair-terms-in-tenancy-agreements.html

[Ela]

Definitely Council

[Sootyca]

Do you know whether she is renting privately or from a Council/Housing Association.  If it is the latter then she would need to approach her housing officer and advise them of the situation.  As they are indoor cats and if she can guarantee (well, as much as possible) that they won't do damage to the property then there should be no problem with her keeping them.  It would be a slightly different situation if they were allowed outdoor access AND it was a shared entrance (eg in a flat) AND they were dogs.

If it is a private rented situation then there is some debate over whether a "no pets" rule is enforceable in law.  Tenants are entitled to quiet enjoyment of a property and a "no pets" rule breaches that if the leasehold states no pets.  Or something like that - would definitely need more research to be sure though. I daresay this could be applied to council/housing association properties too.  I haven't got all the links on this computer but can have a look tomorrow if that would be of any help.

In any case, a landlord cannot enter a property without giving the tenant written notice, again, part of the quiet enjoyment of the property.  The point being, if she decided to keep the cats, the landlord, in theory, wouldn't know unless they were very noisy or the neighbours complained and she would have plenty of time to temporarily "de-cat" the house if the landlord needed access. 

Karen
x

[Ela]

In Chesterfield Council tenants are only allowed 1 cat and 1 dog, If the ask permission sometimes they are allowed 2 cats. It is a good get out for us when someone who we don't think is suitable wants cat though.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

In Manchester there isn't a limit to number, it's just a case of pets are allowed so long as they dont' cause a nuisance to anyone, which sounds sensible to me.  I rent from a housing association and it's pretty much the same - no absolute limits just common sense applied.

If it is a council property, I assume the person has double checked and isn't just going on the word of someone who may have got it wrong?

[CurlyCatz]

is it council accom ela ??

I dont know about local regions in england etc but in scotland the rule is MEANT to be 2 cats and 1 dog only..however i dont think anyone ever pays heed to this and ive never in my life heard of people being told to rehome (unless they are hoarders which is abit different) i do know of quite a few council tennants with even 3 or more dogs.

[Ela]

so she would prefer to keep them ela ??

She would

She is going to take them in for now and write to her MP and to Toni Blair this sometimes does help, especially as in the council houses you are allowed 1 cat and 1 dog.

[CurlyCatz]

so she would prefer to keep them ela ??

in rented accom do landlords often check premises ?? if not she could just keep them without anyone knowing  or atleast do that until new homes can be found.

[Ela]

  Someone has just rang me to ask me to bring in 2 x 2 yr old unsprayed females. Not from our town but a City where there are 2 Cats Protection branches and numerous others cat rescues).
The reason being she is moving tomorrow and because she is moving to a maisonette with a shared walkway and she is not allowed animals. (the cats are on many waiting lists). I have given her one or two ideas as to what to do for now and also offered vouchers for the spaying.
What make me so annoyed is why rules have to be so black and white, these cats are indoor so they would not interfere with a neighbour. I have however, advised her if all else fails to get back to me, as if we have not enough problems to contend with.