Question re: Blood results (Sad News - RIP Billy xx)

[BTC]

Blimey I've got so much to learn!

With that in mind, would it be an idea to cook a chicken, chop it up and add a bit to most of Billy's meals?  Or buy some packs of fresh chicken slices (not processed), which saves having to keep having to roast chickens!  I want to make sure he's getting optimum nutrition, but I don't want to feed him the wrong stuff!  I've made a note to make sure that whatever he eats is v.low in phosphorous - im just not sure about anything else to watch for.  We've only put him on the KD Diet because thats what the Vet recommended.  I'm happy to go for anything that has worked for others.  Please feel free to share any other food ideas, I'm all ears!

[Mark]

There is some controversy with renal food being so low in protein. A lot of experts now say that the original testing was done in rats whic are obviously different to cats and renal diets are too low in protein for them. What they are now saying is protein is fine but it needs to be good quality protein that is bioavailable from things like eggs and meat.

This is one of the many articles http://www.ehow.com/facts_4896669_low-protein-diet-cats.html

At the same time, renal food does have extra vitamin E etc which is good so personally I prefer a mix or renal and other food with good quality protein and like mine to have chicken a couple of times a week etc.- it is a personal choice obviously. Some of the experts now think that it is unnatural for cats to eat low protein diets and it can cause muscle wastage.

[BTC]

Thankyou for the information - it is all greatly received, believe me.  Having read all the posts, we both feel somewhat more hopeful that there is at least a chance that Billy will see some more of life yet.  It's great to hear that CRF doesn't necessarily mean the end is near.  That is very reassuring.  I just hope that Billy is only in the early stages, and that we have time to make a difference by changing his diet etc.

I started him on the KD Chicken Mince (small-tin's) yesterday and am very pleased to report that he is on his 3rd tin today!  For a cat weighing less than 3kg he sure can eat!  I hope that the diet helps him to put back on a bit more weight though - seeing him go from 3.5 to 2.9kg was worrying, although in himself he doesn't appear any different.  I'm actively changing his water for him on a regular basis, and watched him drink a fair bit last night in about 3 seperate sittings (was a bit worried that he wasn't actually drinking enough!).

I will look to get some other flavours / brands and try to mix things up for him.  Am also thinking of putting in some pieces of fresh chicken a couple of times a week (is that ok?)

Its so reassuring to know that we are not alone.  I'm very glad to have found this site!  We are back to the (new) Vet on Wednesday.  I'll keep you informed.  Only pain is we go on our honeymoon in 2wks time and the missus' dad is going to be looking after him - part of us both wishes we weren't going now...  Our wedding is next weekend.   This couldn't have come at a worse time - although that is typical of Billy... always the center of attention!! 

[Mark]

I have 2 cats with CRF. One was diagnosed almost 3 years ago and the other about 6 months ago. They are both on Fortekor and are supposed to be on renal food but will rarely eat it so I use senior food or regular food but either way add binders to it. Kaminx is new to me as my vet has never suggested Potassium supplements but oddly I am worried about Willow (the recent diagnosis) as she hangs her head at times which is a sign of potassium deficiency so I want to get her bloods done again. My vet hasn't suggested sub-q's yet and it would be very difficult as neither of them are easy to handle.

Fortekor can rasie creatinine levels initially for a few days so they can get worse before they get better. It is strange that Billy is drinking less as the first sign of CRF is drinking more as their kidneys are less able to concentrate the urine.

There are a few renal foods around and mine refuse point blank to eat Hills k/d so worth trying the others but don't hold your breath. Senior food has much less phosphorus than adult food but still nowhere as low as renal food. Don't buy any of the foos or binders from your vet as it is much cheaper online from places like vetUK (although still expensive) Royal Canin you a wet renal diet in 3 diffeent flavours and also purina do a renal pate in small tins that seems more palatable.

As for lifespan, there is no kind of guide really as all cats are different. Fortekor is good for slowing down progress of CRF keep with it if you can.

There is an excellent website called Tanya's CRF site but as you will see, there is a mine of information on there and it can be quite bewildering.  http://www.felinecrf.org/ This is the definitive site for CRF.

[swampmaxmum]

 A vet you trust is 100% essential as CRF is a rollercoaster and you'll have lots of questions and you need to trust their judgement and they need to be there for you and Billy.
It's pretty sure any UK vet is going to put your Billy on fortekor. As for kaminox, a little dropper full every day shouldn't be any problem. It's not a drug, just a food supplement which makes them feel a bit better.

I'd ask if your new vet would help you with sub cutaneous fluids (by syringe is easier than by giving set/bag) at home for Billy. Not all UK vets do it but all American ones seem to and it helps so much. They can't get enough hydration from just drinking when they go into kidney failure.  Fortekor works on some cats and not others I think.

I'd redo the bloods and urinalysis before doing anything, just to make sure of the blood numbers and that Billy wasn't dehydrated when they were taken as that can send the values right up.

We all howl our eyes out for our little furry loved ones, you're in good company    don't despair about Billy.

[clarenmax]

Forgot to say, the renal diets offered can be a bit bland, so its often hit and miss as to whether your cat will eat them.

A good compromise is to try mixing renal food in with senior food, and maybe add a phospherous binder as TiggysMum suggested earlier.

There's lots to take in at the moment, so try not to feel overwhelmed 

[clarenmax]

Nothing wrong with being attached to our animals matey    and nothing wrong with showing ya feelings either 

When illnesses like this come about, trusting your vet is 100% important, you have to know that the advice they are given is right, and knowing that they are compassionate animal lovers as well makes a huge difference 

[Bazsmum]

Hey! In my book.... Blokes are truly "Blokes" when they are not afraid to show their feelings! 

[BTC]

Wow!  Thank you all so very, very much for the quick responses.  We are both so very soft when it comes to animals (of course, especially our own) - it's so good to hear so many people are out there offering help/support.  Much appreciated and needed by us at this time - it was a shock for both of us.   About a year ago he was treated for an over-active thyroid and had a successful op.  He's been fine since, although his weight loss has concerned us - this was what pushed us over the edge; he's normally so very clean.  At least he's mostly doing it in the right place!

I've booked in for a 9.30am appt on Wed with another vet in the area as to be honest, our current one is a bit well, cold.  He just doesn't appear to be a major animal lover - or at least that's how he comes across to us.  The new vet has asked us to just put Billy onto the KD Diet for now, so although I gave him his first dose of Kaminox and Fortekor this morning, I will hold back and wait until I have seen the other vet.  He is also going to get Billy's history and blood results.   I think I would be happier to stage the introduction of drugs, rather than give him several at once.   Good point about the urine sample - my current vet didn't ask for one, nor did he check Billy's potassium levels.  So that concerned me a bit - hence the 2nd opinion next week.

I just hope to god that Billy is with us for a long time yet.  You always know that these things will eventually come about, but no matter what, you can never prepare yourself.  I had a little wail about it on my own in the toilet yesterday (after hearing the news from the vet), and I dont mind admitting that I'm a 37yr old bloke.  Pet's have always done me in.  We're as bad as each other, but I'm trying to be upbeat about it all in front of the missus!

Thanks again everyone!

[swampmaxmum]

Kaminox is a potassium supplement but contains vit B, amino acids and iron so helps anaemia too and general well being. It doesn't seem to taste too horrible but watch out if you get it on you as it stains yellow.  The only thing I read was don't give it at exactly the same time as the fortekor and monitor his potassium levels once he starts it to see if he needs a bit more or a bit less.

[Christine (Blip)]

  to Purrs, BTC: glad you found us and decided to join, although I'm sorry it is at a time of worry.

We're always gentle on here, so don't worry about that  

Some good advice already - do check out the CRF site that swampmaxmum and Helen mentioned as well

[Tiggy's Mum]

  to Purrs, sorry it's not under happier circumstances 

There is an absolutely excellent website which I refer to as the 'CRF bible' www.felinecrf.org  Everything is written in laymen's terms and it is an absolute mine of information.

I had a cat with CRF and had very good results with the Fortekor, she was 17 when diagnosed with CRF and had readings of Creatinie 312 / Urea 35.  I lost her almost two years later from an unrelated illness and her last blood results were in the normal range, Creatinine 97 / Urea 9.  I don't have any experience of Kaminox but believe it's a potassium supplement.

How is Billy getting on with the KD? My cat wouldn't eat the renal foods so I fed her 'normal' cat food but with a phosphorous binder sprinkled on to make it more suitable for her kidneys.

There are quite a few of us on here who have had experience of CRF in cats so I'm sure there'll be others who can give you more advice and support too.  Would love to see a pic of Billy 
 

[clarenmax]

Hiya, and   to Purrs  

I'll check those readings against the first ones I had for my boy Max when he was first diagnosed with CRF, I can't honestly remember what the creatine levels were   and they did fluctuate in the year and a half he had the condition.

Fortekor is the main known drug for treating kidney issues, my friend has a cat also with CRF who is doing well on that at the moment, alongside a renal diet.

Not sure what Kaminox is though  

Think we need some piccies of Billy, just so we can see who we're advising about      

We defo likes our piccies  

PS well done for catching this early 

[Bazsmum]

  to Purrs..... 

Im sure you will find all the help and info you need from the lovely peeps on here with their CRF babes! 

[swampmaxmum]

Hi, those are similar blood results that my Swampy had a month ago. My vet said it was moderate CRF. He is on the same meds. It's not really much! All UK vets swear by fortekor. Only one question- did he do a urinalysis and is there protein in the urine as fortekor works best if there is.

Only other thing I would check is blood pressure - as the kidneys get worse the bp goes up and cats can be helped with amlodipine (Istin) as well.

As the creatinine is over 300 (he wasn't dehydrated when the test was done?) you could speak to your vet about doing sub cut fluids as they are a life saver. They don't flush the kidneys, but keep CRF cats hydrated. They all have a problem with dehydration as the kidneys are failing.

the very best site for all manner of info on everything CRF that you could possibly need to know, written in a way that is so helpful to owners: http://www.felinecrf.org/
Everything is on there, it's brilliant.  There is also a yahoo CRF group linked to it. Americans are a way ahead in treatment of CRF than in the UK to be honest. Good luck with Billy.

[Dawn F]

there are loads of people on here who will be able to advise - I'm sure sometime will be along soon, welcome to you and Billy

[BTC]

Hi all,

First post so please be gentle!

Little Billy the Cat (lilac tabby persian) is 13yrs old and has wee'd a couple of times in places in he shouldn't (ie our bedroom).  I took him to the vets as we were quite concerned by this, as he always uses his tray (and still does 99% of the time).

The vet did a blood test and the results were:  Creatinine 327  /  Urea 19.3      So it would appear that the poor little mite has CRF.

The Vet has prescribed the following:
KD Diet (Wet) (Billy has always eaten wet food, so no worries here)
Kaminox
Fortekor

I'm just a bit concerned that this is a bit much - hence my post.   Billy was the runt of the litter and has always been a very small cat, he was around 3.5kg but is currently around 2.9kg.  He still has a good appetite (generally eats around 3 to 4 packs of Felix per day) and drinks water - although not as much.  He goes out into the garden for an hour or so in the evenings, and similar on the weekends, but he is largely an indoor cat.  His eyes are bright, and he purrs and jumps up on the tables etc. still.   Not having done this before, I guess I wondering if these meds are ok all together and what others thought of them - those who had tried them.   I certainly don't want to make him worse in any way.  He doesn't appear to be majorly ill (in fact if it were not for his couple of accidents in the bedroom, I doubt I would have taken him to the vets!). 

My other question is what to make of the blood test figures - how does this compare?  Are things a lot worse than it looks?  Any guage on what to expect re: how long left? etc.   I guess I'm really looking for some indication from others who have had (or are in, a similar experience).  We are both devastated by this news.  I just hope there is still some decent time to be had with him.

Thank you for reading.