Makosi meant to be going in to be spayed tommorow :(

[CurlyCatz]

yep ela that statistics you gave sounds about right.  But i think 90 % is still pretty high and personally if it were my princess i'd like her to mature abit physcially first.  It wasnt so bad in the smaller dogs where they were almost fully grown but take a 5 mnth labrador pup for example or similar are still very much puppyish at that age.  I very much agree that bitches should be allowed to have no more than 1 season and also owners should clearly be given the facts for both and made aware of consenquences etc.  Mind you i can fully understand and accept the reasons for it aswell as preventing the dog going through the hormonal upset that they normally do in a season.

I was trying to work out how many dogs out of say 1000 or whatever that that 10% would affect, however i think in order to do that then we'd need the statistics of how many actually go on to get mammary cancer if left entire and also when spayed after 1 season..i dont know where to find that and also its far too complicated for my brain LOL esp on a sunday.

stick to male dogs i say..must easier LOL

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

i love dirty dancing

Oh! me too, and that is another line in the film. Its sad I know almost all the words.

Have you seen it in London yet ?
I have and its brilliant !!!
Excatly the same as the film

[Ela]

Ela i read in a post back abit where you said in the case of a princess spay vet recommend doing it after the first season, the opinion shifted on that a few years back and there was new studies to suggest that spaying before the first season

To be honest I don't know much about dogs and what I do know can be written on the back of a postage  stamp. (Although as you will appreciate I am well up on Spenic masses). However, I know the advice about spaying after the first season is still being given by many vets ,in fact I know someone was told that only last week. Ans some dog rescues I know advise in the cases where bitches are homed before 9 months  old to have the spayed after the first season.

I donlt know why some vets  and rescues would recommend this as I read that  the  reduction in the incidence of mammary tumours if 100% is done before the first season and 90% is done between the 1st and 2nd.

[CurlyCatz]

good luck for tomorrow forever, i hope she isnt but atleast if you find out she is you can get your self prepared.

Ela i read in a post back abit where you said in the case of a princess spay vet recommend doing it after the first season, the opinion shifted on that a few years back and there was new studies to suggest that spaying before the first season reduced the chance of mammary cancer to pratically negligable numbers..However speaking from experience, spaying a puppy just feels wrong in every way (esp in the larger breeds where they still very much look like a baby at 5 months etc).  I'd imagine many vets are still going on the old information re the first season and personally taking into consideration the hugely reduced chances of mam cancer that is when i'd do it too if i had a female dog (which i'll never have so not a big issue for me LOL)

[CurlyCatz]

I have still got to finish reading recent posts but have just read gills interesting one.

Re the premature babies,  I agree that some the the terrible states these humans have to linger in until death comes is appauling but the biggest problem i reckon is if there are signs of life then obviously you must try and help and when its a "normal" but prem baby you have no idea really of what will lie ahead IE you cannot catagorically say they WILL have severe problems.

Take my son..he wasnt awfully premature only just over 4 wks which is nothing but my placenta hadnt worked and couldnt pass nutrition over to him from my blood supply so there for he was severely malnourished as a foetus and yes this has affected him to varying degrees, I should think my self lucky as it could be alot worse.

I agree where babies seem desparetely ill and doctors all agree 100% that there will be severe disablment/handicapped and give the parents the option of carrying on , altho i know how hard that would be having had a baby wired up and in an incubator I would not condem my child to a life like that.

also if i had been told i was going to have a severly handicapped child at my first scan i would not have carried on with the pregnancy but that would not have been a decision i could make lightly.

[Desley (booktigger)]

You should take the date from when she was last in season, as in human pregnancy. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

thank u ellie .

[Ellie]

Hi forever I haven't posted on here for a while as this subject always brings out emotions from both sides of the coin.

I shall be thinking of you tomorrow and I'm sure if Makosi (great name btw) is pregnant lots of people on here will give you lots of advice and support 

I was not aware of all the complications that not spaying/netuering a cat could cause. CC and now Purrs has been a godsend for me.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

lol yea same ere i know most of the words

its the same with grease 1 and grease 2 ive watched it so much i know what they r going to say next 

[Ela]

i love dirty dancing

Oh! me too, and that is another line in the film. Its sad I know almost all the words.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

oh god im just so thick at times
well at least tommorow i should get my answer either way coz its all driving me crazy at the moment .

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

  i love dirty dancing

[Ela]

do u take it from when they was last in season then ??????????????

That is when she would have got pregnant.

[Ela]

Thanks Ela  yea i dont mind admitting im wrong when i am wrong

That a line from Dirty Dancing

[Ela]

dont u agree ?

Yes

[ccmacey]

I would say she is then judging by that, but I'm not a vet so what do I know. 

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

do u take it from when they was last in season then ??????????????
 weve had max 5weeks and 3days and makosi was in season within the first 2/3 days of him coming here but it only last a few days ,usually lasts 7/10 days

[Desley (booktigger)]

It was actually 5 weeks on Fri from the date you said she was last in season.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

about 4weeks

[ccmacey]

Yes he would be able to feel them, how far along do you think she is?

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

Thanks Ela  yea i dont mind admitting im wrong when i am wrong ,and yes if the vet still cant feel anything then she will defo be spayed this week , if she was pregnant then a vet would defo b able to feel them at this stage dont u agree ?

[Ela]

know ive been irresponsible i hear it every day from my oh

At least you have been honest, and hopefully you will now advise everyone you know with a cat about the dangers of not having them neutered and spayed at an early age. I trust that if they vet cannot feel anything tomorrow you will book Makosi in for a spay and not continue to wait and see.  What I have liked about you is that although  most of the posters  have disagreed with you in your decision not to have Makosi spayed a couple of weeks ago, you  stayed with us and did not throw all your toys out of the pram.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

but she always come in season every few weeks

if she aint pregnant then yes she will be spayed this week .

[Ela]

i would like to know why she hasnt come in season,

Not all cats come into season every four weeks some only come into season a very few times a year. (Thank goodness)

[Desley (booktigger)]

i am glad you are taking her tomorrow, she was on my mind last night. Hopefully teh vet can let you know either way. If she isn't, please have her done this week. I dont know if pyo can stop them coming into season, will see if I can find out for you. Males can still produce sperm after their neuter - some articles say up to 6 weeks, but the smell goes after 2, so dont really know how long it is. The other prob you have is that although you can separate them while you are around, what is happening while you are asleep etc? There is nothing you can do as to leaving her unneutered for so long except following my advice to check her breasts monthly, it is minutes of a job and could save her life, most mammary gland tumours are only picked up when it is quite advanced, you have the chance to not let her be one of them, please take it.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

Hiya everyone
we are taking makosi to the vets tommorow to ask the vet to examine her again
surely by now the vet would know if she was pregnant or not ,
if she isnt then i would like to know why she hasnt come in season,
im not waiting any longer just incase there is a medical reason why she hasnt come in season
( to say im worried to death about it all is an under statement)

this pyo u r talking about ,would that stop a cat from coming on season then?????
 
as ive mentioned in other posts she is acting different to how she was before we got max 5weeks ago ,

 now to answer the questions ive been asked :

no i havent seen them do it
but he is even now (after his neuter) trying to jump on her and like bite her neck n that
makosi doesnt want it now and will hiss at him so each time he tries anything i seperate them as i aint having makosi getting stressed in anyway ,

now to answer the question "why i hadnt got her spayed at 6mths ?"

to be perfectly honest with u it was just a case of always saying we will def get her done next month and with her being and indoor cat and having no unnetured toms at the time i thought it would b ok ,i didnt realise it could increase there risks of getting tumours n that in a later life .
i know ive been irresponsible i hear it every day from my oh 

[Ela]

Unfortunately, most vets won't spay until the cat is 6 months old.

 I think nowadays more and more vets will spay younger kittens and certainly they should if a kitten has a season. I would have found another vet.

[Desley (booktigger)]

That is actually quite sad Deborah - I am lucky that both mine and the rescues vet will neuter at 5 months, and the local feral rescue neuters everything at 8 weeks old - they have to travel further to that vet though. My vet said that CP had sent a leaflet about neutering at 4 months old, so hopefully it will become more commonplace, my vet has seen farm cats pregnant at 4 months old.

[Déborah]

Unfortunately, most vets won't spay until the cat is 6 months old. Mia got her first heat when she was 4 1/2 months old, and I was desperate for the vet to spay her, as I knew about mammary tumours and pyo, but they refused point blank    Because her cycles are so short, she's now had 4 heats, 3 of which could have been avoided had the vet accepted to spay her earlier.

Déborah xx

[Ela]

Just thought I would add that so many dogs die from pyo also, although in the case of a dog vets do not like to spay until a time after the first heat.

[Ela]

I have never heard of it that young in cats,

There you go that is your todays useful information.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I have never heard of it that young in cats, although I have heard breeders having to spay at 12-14 months because of it. The stats for mammary cancer are 200 times less likely if spayed before the first heat, this benefit reduces with each heat until the cat is 2.5yo when the benefit stops. After losing a cat to this terrible disease, I vowed that I would inform as many people as I could, as her life was cut short purely because of it.

[Ela]

but cats have had to be spayed younger than Makosi due to it

How right you are, I remember  a vet spaying a 6 month old cat that looked purrfectly well, When the owner collected the cat that night she was told that had the kitten not gone into be spayed then it would most certainly died very soon  as there  was evidence of pyo. Sadly so many people do not realise the implications of spaying and neutering, Also If someone told me that even one season increases the chance of my cat getting mammary cancer i would make an appointment at the lets immediately. Sadly we have over the years taken in so many cats with mammary tumors. One such cat died only last week, she had some of the tumors removed and had a little time of quality life. but so unavoidable had the owner had her spayed before a season. When will people ever learn they are playing with their cats lives.

[Desley (booktigger)]

How is she doing Forever? ARe you going to take her back to the vets -it is 5 weeks since you said that she was last in heat, so the vet might be able to tell better now. Did you actually see him do anythign to her? I would be getting concerned now just in case there is a different reason for her not coming into season - I dont know if pyo stops them coming into heat, but cats have had to be spayed younger than Makosi due to it. Do you mind me asking how come she wasn't spayed at 6 months?

There is an increased risk she will get mammary cancer later in life because she has had so many heats - please, please check her mammary glands once a month - it is as simple as running your hands over her nipples, but you truly could save her life by doing it, mammary cancer is very aggressive and does spread, so you would need to get her to the vet at the slightest change in things - the 'average' age for developing it is 10.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

I think we should try to keep this thread about cats as it is getting a bit off topic (and this isn't really the place for a general discussion about abortion) and is in danger of getting a bit heated. 

Agreed
I think we will just go round and round in circles so i am bailing out of this topic.
Michelle xxx

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I really didnt want to enter the discussion on this thread but the recent posts are interesting after a discussion at my art class today..........it was part of a bigger conversation which had relevance to studying eetc.

However one of the ladies had been a teacher and currently still helps out in one of the bigger schools locally and happened to remark that a lot of learning and mobilty diffulculties now being seen are often linked to the large number or premature births because in some cases the brain has not fully grown or is underdeveloped so this leads to reading, co-ordination etc problems that are first noticed at some point in school.

I was quering why there are so many problems now when classes are so small compared to when I was at school. Also I was told that some of the coordination issues are because the children growing up are not active like we ised to be and just get put infron of the TV or video or computer and told to just stay there. Consequently some are so bad they cannot even sit on a chair without falling off.

The point I am coming to is that although medicine is getting better and better so younger babies can survive, what problems is that actually causing to those very premature babies and their future lives.

Should there be, maybe there already is, a cut off point where although life is actually viable, decision not to continue must be taken?

This whole subject is so massive in terms of how one thing links to another and our lack of knowledge about so much, the debate will never stop.

Have to say I am also strongly Pro-choice although I do not think that because tests show that there is some abnormality in a baby and depending what it is, pregnancies should not automatically be terminated.

Have to say also and possibly contraversally that I believe its the womans right to choose and not the mans, if both agree then thats great but the womans choice should be the paramount one. I am afraid that the double standard still exists in that it is too easy for the male to just walk out and take no responsibilty. Yes I know sometimes it happens the other way round but that is so far in the minority, the womans choice is the important one.

Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee another can of worms 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

This is and always will be an emotive subject.  I don't agree with aborting, never have done and never will do BUT I deal mainly with the feral cats and sometimes you have to put your feelings aside and think 100% of the cats involved.  However, if I know a cat is pregnant and they are showing visible signs, I honestly can't go through with it.  I, like others couldn't live with that on my conscience.  Sometimes I've trapped ferals that have recently had youngsters......say 10 weeks prior, they have gone in to be spayed and sadly they have been pregnant again.  If my vet discovers they are pregnant whilst under, they will continue with the spay.......it's unfair for a feral to be trapped, be released or kept to have the babies and then trapped again and it's unfair on a cat to go through another pregnancy so soon when they need all the energy they've got to look after their initial brood.  One day I'd trapped a female and I suspected she may have been pregnant, I also had another feral in the car due to go to the vets.  I was in tears outside as my vet was trying to convince me to let him spay her, in the end he said he would check her, if she was in the later stages he would leave her.  I agreed to this but when he rang and told me she wasn't pregnant, I then thought if she was, he wouldn't have told me anyway and I knew it was in the best interests of the cat.  In all, I think in the early stages, I can handle abortion.......just about, but if they are visible I can't.  When I first started dealing with the ferals, if I suspected they were pregnant I couldn't take them to be spayed, but over time and knowing all the heartache that a lot of these cats go through, I can understand why sometimes it's for the best and we also have to remember, these babes don't get a choice.   I pray she isn't as there are far too many kitties in this world without homes but if she is I wish you the best of luck for them.  

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

(At the moment of conception is when a life begins )

when my sister was pregnant the doctor picked up a heartbeat at 8 weeks gone ,
they dont usually listen for heart beats at that stage but my sister was getting pains and she was distraught thinking something bad had happened so to ease her mind the dr made her listen to the heart beat .

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

A 12wk old unborn baby has fingers and toes and a heart beat
Tell me thats not a life

With modern medicine it's very difficult to say at what age a baby can survive, but not at 12 weeks.  That's the point I'm making.  Without the mother being prepared to sustain it until it's bigger it can't survive outside of the body at that age.  So I wouldn't personally consider it an independent being.

Having answered that, I think we should try to keep this thread about cats as it is getting a bit off topic (and this isn't really the place for a general discussion about abortion) and is in danger of getting a bit heated.  Abortion is an emotive subject and something about which most people feel quite strongly one way or another.  It's also something about which it's hard to have a proper discussion as most of us are so entrenched in our views that we aren't prepared to seriously consider another viewpoint so all that will happen is everyone will state their pov repeatedly in an attempt to make themselves heard.

[Déborah]

I really don't want to get involved in a debate on abortion (very strongly pro-choice, a woman's right to decide on what happens to her own body etc.) but I'd like to go back on something that has been said earlier:

am I right in thinking that far from a small cat being more likely to have a small litter, isn't it actually much more dangerous for a small cat to be pregnant, as it can lead to babies being stuck as has been mentionned + the mum's body not being able to cope?

Déborah xxx

(also i don't think it's funny to talk about some people (i.e. poor people) needing to be 'spayed'. It does happen, to mentally ill people in particular and ethnic minorities in the US, and it's a scandal - ok, getting off my soap box now  )