Makosi meant to be going in to be spayed tommorow :(

[Desley (booktigger)]

Michelle, there is a slight difference between human and cats in that we can choose to take pills, use things etc, cats can't - and quite a few of the breeders I know want to give up with the sounds theirs make when they are mating, so not sure how pleasant an experience it is for the female.
Forever - I do disagree that only god can take a life, as I also strongly believe in euthanasia (And also wish that were legal in humans), and humans have to make decisions on behalf of cats - another mum cat we had in at the same time as the poorly one gave up feeding her kits at 4 weeks old, if they hadn't been brought into us, they would have all died, and prob future litters too - all through one persons actions, not God. And as someone who only adopts oldies, yes it is incredibly sad to see so many needing a new home cos they are no longer wanted - and a few come via the vet cos they refuse to do it to a healthy cat and they know I will take oldies on.

[Christine (Blip)]

Michelle, I absolutely respect your views, even if I disagree with them, so please do take the following question in that spirit. Where do you stand on abortion following rape (say in war) or if the mother's life itself will be lost or is threatened?

(This is from lower down but I am sincerely interested in your and others' views on it so I'm bumping it.)

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

A 12wk old unborn baby has fingers and toes and a heart beat
Tell me thats not a life

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

A Life is a Life wheather a lamb or man
LIFE IS PRECIOUS

Only god has the right to take a life !

abortion is so wrong !

I respect your opinion but I do disagree with it    To me there's a difference between a life and a potential life.  A potential life that can only come to fruition if a host is prepared to nurture it is not the same as an individual that can live independently, imo.  In those circumstances I feel the host is perfectly entitled to decide not to provide nutrients etc to bring it to life, and we are entitled to make that decision on behalf of a cat when it's in the cat's best interests.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

Yes i agree with you ,
 
its awful to think of the ones pts simply because they arent wanted or are old

its also  terrible that just anyone can go and buy a kitten or puppy

and its true if they werent so available maybe theyd be more appreciated .

[Ela]

Only god has the right to take a life !

I agree life is very precious, I just spare a thought to all those tens of thousands of  cats and kittens that are PTS by man because there are too many and the thousands that are abused every year because there are too many and too easily come by.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

A Life is a Life wheather a lamb or man
LIFE IS PRECIOUS

Only god has the right to take a life !

abortion is so wrong !

[Ela]

I do not agree with abortion - fullstop.

That is your right and I respect that.

I  don't like it and I am sure nor does anyone else but  we put our feelings to one side in the interest of the cat and the cat world.

As previously posted many people don't eat meat but do give it to their cat because they know it is possibly the right thing to do. I don't  eat lamb, rabbit or any so called game but if it is in cat food then my cats have it.

Obviously we all have our views and I personally will stick to mine as I know it benefits the cats. I would be far happier going down the no termination route but must put the cats interest first as that to me is far more important than my own feelings and beliefs.

[Christine (Blip)]

I do not agree with abortion - fullstop.

As I mentioned before, I respect your views, even if I disagree with them, so please do take the following question in that spirit. Where do you stand on abortion following rape (say in war) or if the mother's life itself is threatened?

[CurlyCatz]

Ditto desley but i wont even go into my feelings on certain humans breeding (then i would start a war LOL)

ditto ela aswell...i feel that the types such as that girl you speak of should be one of the ones sterilised and not allowed to breed at all !! also...no there is no excuse to use abortions like that ..isnt that what the morning after pill is for if she really must put it around and not use protection.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

I actually used to be completely anti-abortion, but I have even changed my minds on humans now -

I am totally the other way i'm afraid.
I do not agree with abortion - fullstop.

[Ela]

anti-abortion, but I have even changed my minds on humans now

I still am when people use it as a form of contreception, I once heard a girl  under 18 brag that she had 3. Although what kind of mother she herself would make is another question.  Other than that I fully understand there are many valid reasons why an abortion is necessary.

However,  as far as pets  are concerned, I feel I cannot use the same principles, as termination is  in the cats interest (not just the pregnant cat but the cat world as a whole) it is like if I was a vegetarian I would still feed my cat meat or the by products of meat and not push my principles on my cat.

Also humans in most cases can say no so they do not get pregnant or take precautions, a female cat has no choice.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Lynn - I actually used to be completely anti-abortion, but I have even changed my minds on humans now - working for the DSS shows you a completely different view of people who truly should be 'spayed' at an early age, and I now think it depends on what kind of life the 'offspring' can have. With regards to cats, the sheer amount of cats that everyone on here (and rescues I know that dont come on here) have to help, plus the ones we can't help due to lack of space changed my views - I do think it is better to end a life before they have a chance than to bring yet more kittens into the world that will need homes, and some will prevent an adult from finding a home.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Ditto to the comments below.

I have been really pleased with the way we have all chatted about how we feel about this situation.
We all have differnet views and beliefs.

[CurlyCatz]

 well said christine 

[Christine (Blip)]

christine i admire you for admitting to that, not many would

Whatever our convictions, it seems to me it is imperative that we speak up for them, even if everyone else disagrees.  The thing is to be respectful of others' deeply held principles at the same time.

 

xC

[CurlyCatz]

i too am glad that we can "happily" disagree. if we were all the same and agree'd it would make for a pretty boring place i reckon (the world i mean not purrs LOL)

christine i admire you for admitting to that, not many would and its a subject i have for and against views on in both sides of the fence, its certainly not a clear cut subject thats for sure. Happily personally ive not had personal experience but ive had the morning after pill several times over the years (all because of slip ups with dh i hasten to add LOL) and some would critasise me even for that.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I second that Desley cos I have just plowed through the whole thread that has appeared since i saw original post last night.

Thank you Purrs people for arguing your views with tolerance and politeness and great also that the mods have been watching just incase 

I hope that the kittens are born without any problems and that mother and kittens are all spayed at the earliest opportunity.

My only other thought is insurance, insurance , insurance LOL, I swear by it and it has paid bills that I could never have afforded over the years 

[Christine (Blip)]

I totally agree with Desley that it's a tribute to everyone's open-mindedness and maturity that we can discuss emotive issues without resorting to personal attacks.  And nothing could be more emotive than being pro- or anti-abortion.  It is not something about which anyone can sit on the fence, and rightly so.

For what it's worth, on this issue I disagree with some people on here whom I most respect and admire: I campaigned for abortion to be available to humans many years ago and it follows I feel the same way when it comes to cats.

 

xC

[CurlyCatz]

you suprise me desley, i didnt think that would be your opinion but if we;re talkin early preg then we're in total agreement.

small marbles may be felt at 2 wks but to be honest this could be faeces also and depending on build/bulk of cat ... ie skinny cat easier to feel than tubbier cat.  if you feel something the size of even 2-4 x the size of marbles to be honest theres no distinuishable kittens there, just cells.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I have already said my opinion on this - while I can see where the people are coming from when they say a life is a life, I still think that early pregnancies should be aborted - we had a pregnant mum come in last year, lovely condition, gave birth with no probs - then became ill, nothing the vet prescribed worked and numerous tests couldn't show anything he could sort out, so mum and babies had to be euthanased when the kits were 5 weeks old. We also lost a full litter of 5 kittens who had come in mumless, but we knew it was her third litter on the go, they were so sickly and tiny. So yes, the majority of pregnancies will go well, but sadly not all do.
I would like to say a very big thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread though, I deliberately came on to check this tonight, and I am very pleased that we have all been nice, friendly and polite, I did expect this to turn nasty. I am very pleased that we can have discussions on very emotional subjects without being nasty.

[Ela]

Ela - I know you save FIV+ cats but some branches still PTS as routine (same with old cats believe it or not)

I cannot speak for other branches,, although many just do not have the capacity,  it is a sad fact of life and unfortunately we cannot save everything. If everyone got their  cats neutered and spayed and stopped letting them breed then perhaps we could help more. Our time could then be used in rescuing cats and finding homes for them rather that endless mums and babies blocking up our pens and everyone offering homes to the kittens.

[Ela]

I think i am right in saying that your vet should be able to feel if she is pregnant at 2wks - kittens will feel like little beads

In all honesty I think they need to be more gone than that for the vet to know.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

No Forever, that is Freddy J my youngest.

My Issey is a Tabby moggie.
She is the love of my life (i know you shouldnt have favs)

I think i am right in saying that your vet should be able to feel if she is pregnant at 2wks - kittens will feel like little beads.

For what its worth i think you are doing the best thing by not aborting - but thats just my opinion

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

Furbaby : awwwwwwww
is that issey in the pic ?

its terrible to think that anyone anywhere would pts a cat with fiv or an older cat

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Forever -
My "kittens" are just over 2yrs old now but i gotta tell ya that Issey still washing them and some of them still suckle from her (no milk of course but more of a comfort thing).
I couldnt have taken them away from her when they were 8wks old - she loves them so much.

Ela - I know you save FIV+ cats but some branches still PTS as routine (same with old cats believe it or not)

[Ela]

i suspect my soots had fiv for a lot of years.

I am sure if everyone had ther cats tested there would be a few shocks, as some of the cats look so well.

[CurlyCatz]

i suspect my soots had fiv for a lot of years.

[Ela]

do fiv cats live as long as healthy cats

TAKEN FROM AN INTERNET SITE:- Dr Sue Duthie at the University Glasgow, has stated that  recent research has shown that cats infected with FIV can live just as long as uninfected cats .A long-term FIV Monitoring Project was also carried out at Glasgow Veterinary School over a number of years and the results indicated that a higher percentage of FIV negative cats died than FIV positive cats! A fourteen year study by Maureen Hutchison B.Sc, BVMS, MRCVS  found that FIV-positive cats are more likely to die by being killed in road accidents or to be alive and well into their twilight years than they are to die from any FIV related condition. Also, a recent survey by Dr Diane D. Addie (Lecturer in Veterinary Virology, University of Glasgow) where 26 cats were monitored for ten years, found that FIV infection did not affect the cats’ life expectancy.

can it only b passed on through mating and biting ?

That is the most likely cause

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

awwwwww thats sad
do fiv cats live as long as healthy cats
can it only b passed on through mating and biting ?

[Ela]

whats the youngest one u have had test positive Elaine ?

A kitten at 20 weeks, we don't have kittens tested until that age as before then there is more chance of a false neg or a false + due to mums antibodies.

[Ela]

oops

[Ela]

No Still dont agree with abortion even in early stages .

I do know what you say, however rescues just cannot deal with the enormity of it all, just before Christmas there were many CP branches who had between 50 and 80 kittens. I think Rebeccas post

Every kitten born and homed means that some other cat, already born and living, somewhere, will not have a home. Most of them will end up being euthanised. Not only is kittening dangerous, stressful and painful for the mum cat (and for your wallet if there's any problem - have you got enough set aside for an emergency caesarian if she needs it?) but it is fundamentally bringing more cats into a world where there are already far, far more living than there are safe, warm homes for them.

says it all really

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

whats the youngest one u have had test positive Elaine ?

[Ela]

i thought the cpl had a special haven for fiv positive cats

Some branches and shelters do, however others just do not have the facilities, It is very sad. We wouselves have taken cats from Wigan and Sheffield and also have all those tested FIV+ from our local RSPCA.Unfortunately there so so many cats testing FIV+

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

Furbaby : omg it sounds like u had a really rough time with it all then

its a shame about the father cat , i thought the cpl had a special haven for fiv positive cats ?

how old r ur kittens now then ?

[Ela]

That's why there's such a risk involved - moreso if the kittens dad is a big lad.

Sadly we also have over the years many cats who have had kittens stuck while trying giving birth, unfortunately some of the have been giving birth outside and have been under hedges etc and there has been huge problems as the kitten has apparently been stuck for ages and the cats plight not noticed.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Forever,
I have 10 cats !!
Wouldn't be without any of them - they are my world.

But let me tell I am not going to paint a wonderful picture about having kittens .

I am actually ashamed to say that Issey had kittens, i dont agree with breeding but it wasn't planned but there is alot of history.
Issey was found as a ferel kitten and hand reared - for the first 6mths she was very ill with Cat Flu, Calicivirus, and then she had a tumour in her throat.
She underwent 2 major Ops to remove this tumour and almost died under anisetic (went blue for 40mins).
My vet adviced me to delay spaying her because of the 2 Ops she'd had.

Well,  she came into season and one morning my Hubby let her out !!!!! (MEN!!)
Hubby heard a noise, looked out of window and an unknown Ginger Male cat had her pinned to the floor
Vet advised abort kittens but i could not do this

Anyway -
4 healthy kittens were born but 2wks later Issey had Mastitus.
So i had to bottle feed the kittens and inject Issey daily with antibiotics. Believe me having kittens is HARD work

Then,
One morning I managed to catch the Father Cat as he was limping, I turned to the CP for help (BIG MISTAKE) They told me to take him to a local vets and then It turned out the Father of the kittens was FIV positive. The CP authorised for him to be PTS - i asked them to sign him over to me but they would not do this so i went to the Vets to be with him as he was Murdered and told him how sorry i was that i had let him down!

Then of course i was left with the fact that Issey had mated with a FIV positive cat !! That was the most horrible and scary feeling. I had to have her and all 4 kittens tested but thank the Lord they were all Negative.

So as you can see its not all plane sailing.
My 10 cats cost be a fortune and i am sure my Hubby would die of shock if he knew just how much !!!!!

[Ela]

Ela - Do CP abort even in later stages of pregnancy ? What is the cut off ?

No not  normally in  later stages of pregnancy, obviously we are guided by our vet and if a vet thought the mother cat was in danger.

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

Lynn : My mum and sister have both thought about it and have said they will def have one kitten each if she is pregnant !

as for the flea treatment i havent checked yet but will do before they are all due to be treated again

as for the vet bills : i see what u r saying about the cost
we havent got much moeny compared to other people but we dont smoke or drink or have children all our money goes on our animals and our food and bills etc
if an emergency was to happen and i needed to apy a very large sum in vets bills then obviously id do it even if i had to sell something or pawn something , all my animals go to the vet even for the slightest thing ( like there was some dry white flakes in flossys fur a few months back and i got her to vet same day and all it was ,was a bit of dry skin ) 
obviously keeping 4 kittens isnt an ideal situation with me already having 7 cats and a german shepherd but im not prepared to abort
or sale them , or just give them to anyone , 
other then my mum and sister if i found someone who was vetted by the rspca or cpl
and they were a genuine animal lover and had knowledge of cats and kittens and was prepared to raise the kitten as an indoor cat then id consider rehoming ,if not id keep them .