Terrible vet locum story - do not read if easily upset

[CurlyCatz]

believe me hippy you would have know..apart from what i said its EXTREMELY stingy under the skin.

[Hippykitty]

Thanks Lynn, I just hope it's my memory at fault and not that the vet made a mistake!

[CurlyCatz]

yes hippy .. very much so, barbituate is NEVER injected under the skin and more than likely if it were injected it would not euthanase the animal as probably by the time the animal slowly absorbed it from the site the liver would metabolise it..also barbituate under the skin can cause horrendous skin sloughing (where the skin basically sloughs off)  ive never actaully seen this but we're well warned about it...if whilst injecting a barbituate anaesthetic into a leg vein and some gets perivascular (remembering the type used in ga's is much weaker and often diluted down to 2.5%) then the normal practice is to then inject some sterile saline under the skin aswell to dilute the effects further and hopefully there shouldnt be any probs.

only things like vaccines, antibiotics etc are given into the scruff as these are things that CANNOT be given intravenously (there are some antibiotics that can obviously but most milky coloured opaque stuff as a rule of thumb cannot be given iv...of course there is an expception being propofol which is a modern wonderful anaesthetic and now used inplace of the barbituate one...it just looks like milk and can be abit un nverving when you first use it)

[Millys Mum]

Lynn, i saw a program a while back and i thought it was oral barbituates, so found a link to confirm it: http://www.oahhs.org/issues/oregon_death_with_dignity.php

Q: What kind of prescription will a patient receive?

A: It is up to the physician to determine the prescription. To date, most patients have received a prescription for an oral dosage of a barbiturate.

[Hippykitty]

Lynn, I'm sure that at least a couple of cats I've had pts in the past have been injected into the scruff, not into a vein. Am I getting muddled?

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I hav never had a home visit for PTS, but my neighbours have and there were 2 of them.

I've had a couple of my dogs pts at home but only one vet came out.  One of my dogs I had sedated first as he was petrified of vets........I was warned about the blood pressure dropping but thankfully the vet managed to get a vein and he was gone in seconds.  When I've took the cats in sometimes the vet nurse and vet have been there, other times just the vet.

[CurlyCatz]

i did think as i posted that it wouldnt really be feasable in cats and not all dogs, perhaps in many years to come their will be progressions on those fancy pen things "no needle injections" i think some diabetics etc can use now where the injection has no needle and  i forget exact process but i think the liquid is forced through your skin or something, ive seen it done on this morning and it was totally painless..of course again i imagine only suitable for small quantities but who knows what we'll have in the future eh ?
 . what i was really wandering is what that solution is..i have tried to find out on the web before but couldnt find the answer.

[Ela]

I would personally prefer my cats to have an injection than drink a liquid - we all know you can't force a cat to have a drink, and what would you do if they didn't like the taste and stopped half way through it?

I agree, I would not be happy at that idea at all.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I hav never had a home visit for PTS, but my neighbours have and there were 2 of them.
Lynn - I would personally prefer my cats to have an injection than drink a liquid - we all know you can't force a cat to have a drink, and what would you do if they didn't like the taste and stopped half way through it?

[Ela]

As I say I have never seen it done and if a home vsit is necessary to PTS the vets always take a nurse with them.

[CurlyCatz]

No ela, not nec where the veins have collapsed but in order to inject into a vein or indeed withdraw from a vein the vein has to first be raised..if there is no one experienced to do this for you then a home made tournique basically can be used ie rubber band and forceps.  of course you can get proper ones but often they are more dog sized and abit too wide for cats legs.

so you have to raise the vein then once you are in and have the proper drawback of blood ensuring you are in you have to release the tornique (or nurses thumb etc) before you can inject any solution.  if you didnt release then the vein would blow.  when taking a blood sample you do have to maintain the pressure but you repeadly apply and release the pressure thus giving it a milking effect of blood.

the pressure isnt to make the vein easy to see but to basically get it full of blood so the needle can enter, otherwise the needle would be unable to enter properly into the vein cavity and more than likely pass straight through it since they are soft structures and not rigid like hose pipes.

[Millys Mum]

As Lynn says

veins raised by someone who is very practised in doing so.

I assume it takes the job of the vet nurse. George wasnt flat at all. Maybe its just my vets favoured way?  Its the same how when a human has a blood test they tie up your arm. Makes the vein easy to see.

[CurlyCatz]

I'm glad it went "well" for you milly's mum and you are perhaps more adept at holding your animals  than other owners at such a time but had it gone the opposite way and you werent "poised" should your loved ones have struggled or the vet accidently knocked the needle out of the vein slightly whilst removing the clamp before injecting (which could happen regargless of competancy or experience..just plain old bad luck) then you might not have had such a smooth outcome.

I know my boss who was also the same as you describe your vet to be had done what you describe a few times be it on a house call where no nurse was available, altho we generally went with him..or for other reasons but its just about being prepared for all eventualitys i guess., i myself have many times single handedly taken both canine and feline blood samples own my own with no handler and i also pts my grans worm with no help altho i sedated him a tiny bit first..we never refused the owner to be as much hands on as they could be and in all my years there we had lots of "thankyou" cards and i cannot recall one single angry person after the pts had been done.  I also think nurses are perhaps abit better at "hugging" the clients aswell often with tears in our own eyes.

[Ela]

an elastic band/clamp to get the vein.

I have never seen that done, Is it when the veins have almost collapsed?

[Ela]

we had some owners request that they alone held their pet and hold its leg etc but we had to firmly say no,

I am not sure I agree with that in all cases, I can understand if ithe owner is in a state and likely to run out in the middle of the procedure. However, I would have thought a vet could read the situation and know when to advise it perhaps is not in the best interest of the pet or the owner. Stuart held Badger when he was gently PTS and he would not have wanted it any other way.

[Millys Mum]

I think id be furious if i was told i couldnt hold my cat! Fortunately my vets have never said no. Iv had both done at home with just the vet and an elastic band/clamp to get the vein.
Both times it was a head vet who i have the upmost trust in.

[CurlyCatz]

forever, inj are never given into an animals paw but in the leg vein.

a normal smooth euthanasia should look no different to an animal having an intravenious injection of normal anaesthetic before an op, they go down in exactly the same manner and infact the drug used is a very strong barbituate, one of the most commonly used injectable anaesthetics is also a barbituate just a weaker type..altho thiopentone isnt being used so much by many practices due to the fabby advantages of newer types  of non barbituate anaesthetics. (which is also much more expensive but i;d recommend every time)

Now if i were desperatley ill with no hope of recovery i'd gladly welcome being injected by the same stuff as animals as my own choice of euthanasia..however i do not understand nor ever had answers to the 3 injections that humans have when they are executed and why they cannot have the same 1 injection as animals..also i do not know what the solution is that they take in switzerland for their pro active euthanasia, i seen it on a telly program (fictional not reality !)and the woman was painlessly dead within a minute of drinking the stuff ????  I could imagine some owners prefering their pet to drink a small amount of solution rather than needles etc ?

[CurlyCatz]

yes ela i cannot understand how any pts could go smoothly without atleast 1 nurse..we only ever used to have 1 as we felt the least amount of staff so the owners could cry etc if they wanted to without being intimidated by the presence of others was best, also our consult rooms werent massive so with all those bodies  (poor choice of word, i meant humans) it would be too much i think. 

we had some owners request that they alone held their pet and hold its leg etc but we had to firmly say no, you stroke/talk to her etc etc, as soon as we're done you can cuddle her but an animal at that time perhaps more than any other time should be restrained properly and veins raised by someone who is very practised in doing so.

we used to also offer sympathetically if the owners didnt wish to be present they could go through to waiting room and we'd call them as soon as we;d performed the inj as you'd be suprised how many dont want to be there for the act itself but feel forced to do so..we're a funny bunch us people with a wide range of reactions to dealing with certain situations.

[Ela]

ive never had to experience holding an animal while the vet  put them to sleep

At our vets there is always 1 and usually 2 vet nurses on these occasions in with the vet, one is there to support the owner and the other will hold the cat if you wish or hold it with you.

To be honest in all the occasions part from Lucy all I can say  is that if death could be described as nice then it was  and very peaceful.

[CurlyCatz]

dawn, yes i guess...i suppose actually since i have sat here and thought about it, i actually cannot recall a fairly Fit strong animal being euth via heart inj..i can recall a few where they have been very very ill and if not collapses or the verge of it. (fit perhaps not the right word as normally they are ill and needing pts but i hope you catch my drift)  Yes thinking about it in more depth, renal inj prob isnt nearly so bad since the kidneys are so easily located far closer to the external cavity and also there are no intercostal cartilage to get through and it is always quick.

Ela as for what you said...i have in all my life never heard anything so peculular in all my life...why an earth would a vet so roughly inject a heart THEN try to get a leg vein, which i bet your bottom dollar he didnt get the injection intravascularily after having already injected the heart as the circulation would be collapsing nearly immediately !!! was he a vet who perhaps qualified at the turn of the last century ??? must have been !!  (thinking about that again, i bet he didnt get the heart the first time and merely injected some into the chest cavity, to avoid messing further then went on to get a leg vein...outragous!!!!)

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

omg Elaine that sounds terrible 

i thought they injected the paw ??????

when my snowey was pts i was still at home living with my mum and mum was the one who went in the room with him , ive never had to experience holding an animal while the vet  put them to sleep but as my partner pointed out the other day one day i will have to 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

When anyone's taken an animal in to be pts, it's always upsetting but it makes a big difference in how you handle it if they go peacefully........when I think of Albert, the first thing I think about is his last moments.

[Ela]

The vet injected him into his heart without forewarning me and it was the most horrific experience of my life.......

That is exactly what on on call vet (at a practice we don't usually use) did to my Lucy. (he came into the room with the preparation and stabbed her in the heart as he walked past. when she went down he then completed the procedure by putting the needle in the leg, I was heartbroken and cried for a week.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Lynn, even forewarned the whole situation was distressing both for myself and Albert......he fought it right to the end and the vet described him as a "strong little buggar"    Sadly, I had to have little Bert pts a couple of months ago, she was Keiko's sister and had liver problems.  She went totally flat one evening and I had to take her in, the vet injected her into the kidney and she did go very quick and peacefully.  When I've taken ferals in in the past, the vet has sedated them first..........I had Max sedated and I just held him until he went, the whole thing was so much less stressful and Max was really relaxed.

[CurlyCatz]

dawn something you said i think held a key to many of these situations...

The vet injected him into his heart without forewarning me and it was the most horrific experience of my life.......

That says alot, and perhaps many a bad experience or percieved bad experience could be avoided if lines of communication were alot better and procedures (be it euthanasia or other) was explained in a step by step fashion first.

I see know harm or problem in sedating an animal prior to internal organ injections for euth first but whether it is with or without the vet should always discuss what is about to do and happen first.

I had to take my own grannys cat to be euth a few years ago, I had previously put to sleep her male cat myself 2 years earlier and was glad i could do so as it was better for both worm (the cat) and my granny but when it was smudges time A) i wasnt currently working and had no dolethal and B) smudge was the most gentle kindly cat in the world but by heck try to get blood samples / medicate etc and you'd know about it LOL, so i took her to the vets, tears in my own eyes (she was very old and had gone down hill very quickly) and the vet prob knew how traumatic it would be to get a leg vein and so he told me right away he'd inject her into her kidney...i was ok with it and smudge probably felt less pain than what a needle in her little leg would have caused and she died quickly and peacefully BUT i was a wee bit upset the vet didnt actually discuss first he said what he was going to do without really consulting me if "it was ok" first.

[Ela]

There are good and bad people in all professions, but sometimes we only hear the bad.

I completely agree. Whenever we have a job done and something is not right I always complain (as you would) equally if a good job is done I always ring someone above that person to say that a good job has been done. It is only fair. 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

This is an awful experience for you and my heart goes out to you    I've had a couple of bad experiences when the vets have euthanised but luckily most have been a calm and peaceful passing to the bridge.  I had to take one of my cats in a few years ago for euthanasia, he'd got cancer of the nose and it was his time.  The vet injected him into his heart without forewarning me and it was the most horrific experience of my life........I will never forget what I went through that day and my memories of Albert were his last few moments.  When I mentioned this to my new vet he was adamant if done right, they go quickly and peacefully.  I agree that not all cats can be injected into the vein but if they have to go any other way, I would always have them sedated now.  Anyway my second cat to have a bad experience was again injected into her heart.......it turned out she had a mass so the vet struggled.  He was as upset as I was and I know he felt awful about it.........he had tried to convince me it would be quick and painless and he cocked it up.  I would never again let any of mine be injected this way unless the cat was totally flat and there was no other way.  We have to remember though that vets are humans and mistakes can be made but by the same token, this cat should have been checked for a heartbeat and checked properly.........the vet probably did feel awful about the whole thing but try not to dwell on it, these cases would be few and far between 

[Desley (booktigger)]

I think there have been some valid points made that we dont know the truth of the story, and I think that it is sad that it has destroyed your faith in vets Mark, not every vet is the same - my vet gave PEbbles a sedation purely because she had got very fond of PEbbles (despite Pebbles seemingly hating my vet, and biting her on more than one occasion!!), and didn't want to have to look into her eyes while giving her that final jab. There are good and bad people in all professions, but sometimes we only hear the bad.

[CurlyCatz]

they are indeed the dangerous ones fuzzie..but on the case in question for all we know the vet who did this might have been absolutely devastated and distraught when the cat was brought back in ?

[fuzziesdad]

to right we all make mistakes and I have made some howlers and all things in all doctors and vets have to be brave to do the job they do but ...........................some not all will never agree that they make mistakes.
 

[Ela]

I wouldn't wait 24 hours, but I have felt all mine go - Snowy went halfway through the injection, but the vet continued to give the full dose and check her, which after reading this I am grateful for!!

We know our Boy had gone when only about 1/3 of the solution had been injected, (The vet did go one to give the full dose)

And I knew Blackie hadn't gone before the vet checked her

I think I know what you mean, we know our pets and I can tell when the little soul has left the body and gone towards Rainbow Bridge and the body is just an empty shell. There is no way of explaining but you look at the cat and know it has gone.

[Ela]

It has destroyed my faith in vets.

That is a shame, whilst the topic is sad, occasionally we all make a mistake, even the most professional is fallible. However, I am sure that a very valuable lesson was learnt and I expect the vet will never make the same mistake again.

[CurlyCatz]

suzanne i agree with you totally.

euthanasia as i said is something i always was paranoid about as i couldnt stand the thought of "bagging" a body if it were not 100% dead, let alone put it straight in the freezer hence my overdose of barbituate and sneaky checks after others had performed the act.

I do think perhaps enough obs were not taken in the case involved but having said that i also am aware that a euthanasied animal may be totally non breathing and what seems like no heart beat but infact it may be the weakest slowest heart beat ever which the animal prob wouldnt survive from anyway but somehow the brain seems to keep sending the electrical signals or perhaps not even that but the hearts own pacemaker having stronger electrical activity.

Also i think on hearing stories like this you will always get add ons from everyone else often with complaints of what happened when in actual fact most peeps wont tell a "joyous" story as its a heart break and something they ALWAYS feel guilty about and blame themselves for or look to blame someone for the loss of their loved pet.

Fuzzie...check out salarys and grades of the average vet...honestly not nearly as high as you might think and in general the perception of vets being so highly paid is totally false.

Also i can understand why everyone doesnt like if their animal is euthanaised via inj into the heart or kidney but the biggest amount of time in practice this is only done where it is necessary ie due to poor veins, circulation, a very angry animal etc etc(where battling to get a leg vein would cause even more stress to animal and owner) IE my grans lovely yorkie was pts at home last year..david the lovely vet sedated him with domitor first as timmy was having breathing probs and was distressed then due to the dogs heart being on its way out and domitor causing low blood pressure david injected a practically anaesthetised timmy into the heart.  The kidneys are sometimes also used as they recieve 25% of the total blood volume going to them with every pump of the heart so again its a rapid death usually with really no more pain than a leg injection.  I do however think in a lot of cases these things might be better if pre planned like a will if you like and this is where establishing a good relationship with your vet comes in so you can have chatted and laid down base plans with your wishes being specified before hand, of course i know this isnt always practical in many cases or might have to be abandoned but it would do no harm if they were in place first so when your animal is ill you dont have to discuss such distressing things then.

I'm not sticking up for any vet who is actually a "bad vet" but i do think i have a balanced view of both sides and this will always be a very difficult area to discuss fairly.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

what this vet did was unforgivable and he/she will continue to think that what was done is perfectly OK,

But do you really know that?  Were you there?  Do you really know exactly what happened?  All we have here is 2nd hand account of an event that took place years ago and none of us know all the facts or how the vet felt about it afterwards.   Judge as you would be judged I say.  Every single human being makes mistakes including vets and doctors.  All the time.  All we can hope for is that procedure are in place to minimise the chances of them happening, that those arising from negligence and malpractice can be identified and that all of those involved can learn from them.  As long as veterinary medicine (and human medicine) is carried out by people and not robots mistakes will happen and we're kidding ourselves if we think they will ever not happen. 

[Desley (booktigger)]

I wouldn't wait 24 hours, but I have felt all mine go - Snowy went halfway through the injection, but the vet continued to give the full dose and check her, which after reading this I am grateful for!! And I knew Blackie hadn't gone before the vet checked her.

[Mark]

These stories are really horrid, bringing up all sorts of fears of being buried alive.
 

I think that is one of the things that hit me the hardest.

I also agree with  fuzziedad - an apprentice electrician may do some work on your electrics but a qualified one will have to check and sign off. It seems this isn't a one-off so there really has to be a full-proof way of checking. Before I saw Hippykittys message about keeping an animal for 24 hours, I had already decided that I will do something like that if/when the time comes. It's not just novices that make mistakes. Often competent experienced people are quite blase about the way they do their job so can be just as bad.

[Hippykitty]

When I had Bella pts due to a FLV related chest tumour, she lay on my sofa for a few hours while my boyfriend of that time was digging her grave. I was sure she was still alive. I didn't see any signs of breathing, it was just a feeling. That night, after she'd been buried, I felt the urge to get her in out of the bad weather, almost as though she were still alive. This haunted me somewhat.
For this reason, and for the reasons given by others here, if I ever need to have another pts, I will wait at least 24hrs before burying them, to allow time for any incomplete euthanasia to wear off.  But I hope that my oldies go gently while sleeping.
These stories are really horrid, bringing up all sorts of fears of being buried alive.
I always thought that the overdose of barbiturate, or whatever, was so massive as to make death inevitable. Amazing what some people will do to save money on what must be fairly cheap medication.

[fuzziesdad]

I think the point here is they will still take the full money for it though,training or not they have to remember they are dealing with peoples feelings and if they are unsure they should have a fully qualified vet with some experience.
I know everyone has to learn ....but whilst I was doing my apprenticeship as an electrician I never ever left anyone without electricity and if I got into trouble I asked for assistance.....you should never be to proud to ask for help.
roger.

[shecat]

I really have to agree with Susanne when my dog was put to sleep although his liver and kidneys were shot to pieces and a very large tumour had been found his heart was sound and it took a very experiencied vet to finally end his suffering. Teaching and learning and this will happen with a vet.  Do you think they come out of uni knowing what to do of course nor as any doctor nurse etc you learn on the job. Fortunately this does not happen offten, but young people will make mistakes and learn from them.  That young vet will probably dream of this mistake for the rest of his life and wont let it happen again,

[fuzziesdad]

I know what you mean Lynn - it's just that when they told me the story, I thought it was the most horrible things I could imagine and no punishment would be enough for any vet guilty of this. It has destroyed my faith in vets.

you mean you HAD faith in any vet?
the vet we use now is OK but she still is convinced that our "harry" has FIV even though she came back with a clear negative result from Glasgow university(this is probably because I insisted that bloods be sent to them(Glasgow)) I know my cats better than any vet.
what this vet did was unforgivable and he/she will continue to think that what was done is perfectly OK, RCVS or sue,
 suing is probably best as it hits them where it hurts in the pocket they are professionals and earn very good money for what they do or are supposed to do.
roger.