Archie caught a mouse, what would you do

[tigerbaby]

Jameson has caught a mouse every day now since the weather has been nice. In the morning there'll be a mouse outside the catflap (outside, thank lord!) or on the patio.

I was in the same dilemma just a second ago - my proud boy brought a mouse to our garden, played around with it (showing off). The poor mouse was in shock, and tried escaping a few times but Jameson is superfast... the mouse didn't seem hurt at first, just in shock but tried running off when J slammed his paw on it, whacked it in the air and hurled it across the lawn. It was painful to watch - I checked on the mouse and his eyes were flickering like an old light switch so I begged OH to end it's misery..... so he did.

Jameson then stretched out on the lawn looking very pleased with himself and didn't care the mouse was dead/gone. He had just had his dinner 25 min earlier so the mouse was purely for his hunting/playing pleasure..

[Bryony84]

Goodness - what a thread!!

I'm quite thankful that our 2 havn't started bringing me anything furry yet, a friends cat brough him a mole once - his cat willow hadn't harmed it, she'd got it home, put it own and must have not known what to do with it next. Apparently when my friend went to pick it up, it made a very odd growling noise but seemed fine when he released it.

[Smudgey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grackle

That any good? Well it seems to be a bird

OOh Ty Rosella moggy Y didn't i think of that lol

[Rosella moggy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grackle

That any good? Well it seems to be a bird

[Smudgey]

Can someone please enlighten me as to what is a Grackle as in Dark moon's post???

[Rosella moggy]

Just saw you had posted Alison so felt able to revisit this thread. I too hope Archie's latest spree is over   

[alisonandarchie]

Thanks JS, he has not caught anything else which is brilliant

[JackSpratt]

Anyway....Alison, hope Archie has exhausted his "supply" of mice by now. It is upsetting not knowing what to do.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I am now advising that should the same thing keep being repeated the thread will be locked.

Sorry Gill just read your post    If needed, I will delete my last post 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Moreover, killing the same vermin by using poison to kill them over many hours/days is fine.

And nobody has said this is a humane way of killing them either, it's far from it and again, something I wouldn't wish on any poor animal.

You may not want to confront this, but this is the reality of life.

It may be the reality of life but it doesn't mean to say we agree with it.  Reality is also having a world full of paedos, murderers, animal abusers, druggies, thieves, rapists and so on, so are saying we should just shut up and put up because after all, this is the real world we are talking about    The only way for change in the world is by education, get people to see the harm they are doing, pointing out cruelty when really it should be staring them in the face and finding alternative ways of doing things.  As for a more humane way, I think a gun would do a much quicker job as I'm sure they have access to them over there, anyway it's not something I really want to be thinking about but yes there are alternatives that I'm sure are a lot kinder.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

In summary Sunama, your last post was totally unnecessary and upsetting to many.

Christine tactfully suggested that this had gone round in circles and enough was enough.

I am now advising that should the same thing keep being repeated the thread will be locked.

[sunama]

So, in summary, the general concensus is that killing unwelcome vermin, by catching them in rat-traps and pouring boiling water over them is bad. We can also say that nobody on this board has suggested an alternative method of extermination.

Moreover, killing the same vermin by using poison to kill them over many hours/days is fine.

I think the crux of the matter here is how the human feels and not the rat/mouse. EG. its fine to eat meat when you find it all nice and cleanly packaged in a supermarket. But its not fine to eat the same animal when you have seen its head chopped off and skinned while it's body is still warm and twitching.

Many people have been burned to death over the centuries: such are very cruel deaths. 

I should add that I have seen TV programs, where in Australia they have so many rats that some people just douse them in petrol and burn them alive.

You may not want to confront this, but this is the reality of life. People exterminate vermin. Even the UK Government has a certain amount set aside to pay exterminators to kill vermin.

But anyway, like Christine said, I think we are going round in circles and going off-topic, so we should end discussion regarding rat killing methods and boiling water.

[Christine (Blip)]

I think the majority of us would prefer not to be killed by having boiling water poured over us.  Many people have been burned to death over the centuries: such are very cruel deaths.  I acknowledge that there are many other cruel deaths too, because human ingenuity seems to know no bounds in this area.  An element of revenge or sadism is usually involved.

Anyway, debate is always welcomed on Purrs but there comes a point where it simply goes round in circles.  Perhaps I am perpetuating that.  I hope not.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

So whats the alternative?

The alternative is put yourself in the rats shoes and then think about how you would like to die, in excruciating pain or humanely 

[Millys Mum]

I would rather not discuss the finer points of how to slaughter animals all i know is there are humane ways of dealing with unwanted visitors, even if its a JRT doing it

[sunama]

Theres a list of scientifically 'acceptable' ways of killing animals for meat, funnily enough boiling water doesnt pass their criteria. It is not humane.

So whats the alternative?

[Millys Mum]

Just because its a wild mouse or rat doesn't mean it shouldnt have a slower end than a domestic would. Iv taken wildlife to be pts to end suffering and i will continue to do so.

Theres a list of scientifically 'acceptable' ways of killing animals for meat, funnily enough boiling water doesnt pass their criteria. It is not humane.

[ems]

"Obviously this is a cat forum, hence some members are perhaps not aware of what happens in the real world."

Am I missing something here? 

"but I also think cruelty is cruelty whichever way you try and define it and whichever country you are in"

Agree with you totally Dawn, when we lived next to a field my OH had to put some mice out of their misery that had somehow wandered into our flat in the winter by hitting them on the back of the head, rather than have them screaming in agony. The same way he used to break rabbits necks that were suffering from mixamatosis (sp?) when he worked on the golf course and the golfers used to push the poor creatures out of the way to play their shot 

Also I used to work on a small farm and have seen rats the size of cats but they were removed as humanely as possible modified to this was when they were in the barn where the freezers were kept with the food for the farm shop but they were still removed as humanely as possible

[sunama]

I am aware certain species spread disease, I think I've been around long enough to see that but I also think cruelty is cruelty whichever way you try and define it and whichever country you are in.  I am also not naive enough to think animals are disposed of humanely, I have done rescue for a number of years and I also have a lot of AR contacts so I do get quite a few emails through that even the hardened would be sickened by.  I guess some of us have different views on the ways we treat animals and how we would like to be treated, whether the animal in question is classed as "vermin" or not, they still don't deserve to suffer and if they are going to die, it should be done as humanely as possible.  You say you were 9 years old, but you say it as if it's the norm to go round killing rats in this way, I mean how the hell would you feel having someone pour boiling water over you and then waiting for you to die    I doubt it the nicest way to go but then who am I to judge 

Ok then, can you offer a method of killing the vermin rats that were infesting a home, in a humane manner, while still in a big rat trap?

Boiling water was the fastest way. They were dead within 15-20 seconds or so, while the water was being poured over them. My parents had no intention to prolong the agony/pain.

Also, I cant be sure, but I doubt that Animal Rescue shelters (that you have connections with) receive many big 1KG rats that are carrying disease, brought in by members of the public. Members of the public wouldnt even touch a "wild" rat that is obviously in physical distress. They would actually avoid it, if they found it on the street. In reality, after the rat dies (or even when on its last legs), it would get eaten by another animal. In fact, it would be interesting to see the reaction of an AR worker should a wild rat be brought in for attention. I'm sure there must be laws/rules regarding vermin and how they must be dealt with...even in animal shelters, for fear of infecting other animals/humans in the shelter.

Rats that are pets, that have been reared in captivity, in cleanliness are totally different to the rats you find near rubbish bins. Am I the only person who is seeing this?

Obviously this is a cat forum, hence some members are perhaps not aware of what happens in the real world. Cats will kill and eat mice. Sometimes, they just kill them. It happens. In the wild, this sort of thing happens a lot.

If there are infestations of rats in buildings, houses, etc, exterminators are called in. When this happens, poison is left in strategic places and mice/rats die. Slowly. Over many hours and sometimes, days. In agony. And yes, this happens in the UK.

My parents killed rats in less than 20 seconds. So, now tell me, which method is more humane? My parents' way (20 second death) or the UK exterminator way (slow death over many hours)?

BTW. I'm sure I am entitled to my views regarding rats (thats what discussion forums are about), however, if this forum doesnt promote debate, then do tell me now and I will keep quiet.

[JackSpratt]

You do realise that rats (and pigeons) carry disease?

Indeed I am - as do a lot of species. I'm not saying I encourage rats,mice and pigeons into my home purposefully I'm just saying I respect the fact they have the right to exist as does any species of animal.

[LesleyW]

As for taking the mouse to the vet - thats surely over the top. In most countries, mice, rats (and pigeons) are considered vermin. Indeed some people buy cats especially to erradicate a mouse/rat infestation that might exist in their homes.

If we took the rats to the vet, to be put to sleep, we probably wouldve got beaten up and thrown out. I'm not sure how a vet in this country would respond.

When I worked in a Vets, we often had mice, rabbits, pigeons etc bought in that had been caught by cats, and invariably, if they were able to be saved, one of us would take them home and tend to them until they were recovered enough to be released.  If they were passed saving, they were put to sleep humanely and quickly.  Maybe I was fortunate that I worked in a Vets where every animal was treated with care and respect.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

You do realise that rats (and pigeons) carry disease?

Also banging the rat on the back of the head was not possible. It was in the rat trap and couldnt be accessed without letting it out and subsequently chasing it around the house. The rat had to be killed while in the trap. Boiling water was the fastest way.

Have any of you ever had rat (and I mean big, nasty, dirty, bold rats) infestations? Those things are vile and need to be eradicated.

Dawn, I can see you are an animal lover and believe that all animals are "disposed" of in humane ways, in this country. This is not the case. As an example, the pigeon problem at Trafalagar Square was recognised as serious. People are advised to not feed pigeons as they encourage the propegation of even more disease carrying vermin. Furthermore, birds of prey were brought into the area to discourage pigeons from hanging around at Trafalgar Square. These birds of prey would occassionally rip pigeons apart. You have to be objective when dealing with infestations and you cant afford to fall in love with animals that are running riot in your home.

I am aware certain species spread disease, I think I've been around long enough to see that but I also think cruelty is cruelty whichever way you try and define it and whichever country you are in.  I am also not naive enough to think animals are disposed of humanely, I have done rescue for a number of years and I also have a lot of AR contacts so I do get quite a few emails through that even the hardened would be sickened by.  I guess some of us have different views on the ways we treat animals and how we would like to be treated, whether the animal in question is classed as "vermin" or not, they still don't deserve to suffer and if they are going to die, it should be done as humanely as possible.  You say you were 9 years old, but you say it as if it's the norm to go round killing rats in this way, I mean how the hell would you feel having someone pour boiling water over you and then waiting for you to die    I doubt it the nicest way to go but then who am I to judge 

[hannah (weeny)]

sunama - i think its fairly obvious the situations are completely different.  please do not be getting offensive to other peoples points of view.


jasper tends to put live mice in shoes    he always seems to bring them inside (obviously goodness only knows what else he gets up to out there!!)  and he plays with them.  in the middle of the night. and i aint gonna listen to that while i'm trying to sleep!!  so they get put outside and from there... well who knows!

jasper does get terribly loving when he's caught something though - very 'meowmy - look what i got for you - arent a wonderful'  and yes... he is 

[sunama]

He would battle it out. He catches pigeons and magpies bigger than him, he'll take anything on.

I like Jameson. Unfortunately, I cant let my 2 cats out, as they are pedigree cats and would probably get nicked in the area that I live in. Reflex, my Egyptian Mau, would certainly be a prolific hunter and I can very much imagine him bringing home "presents".

[sunama]

You do realise that rats (and pigeons) carry disease?

Also banging the rat on the back of the head was not possible. It was in the rat trap and couldnt be accessed without letting it out and subsequently chasing it around the house. The rat had to be killed while in the trap. Boiling water was the fastest way.

Have any of you ever had rat (and I mean big, nasty, dirty, bold rats) infestations? Those things are vile and need to be eradicated.

When you are watching the TV, in the evening and see a big black fat rat walking around your living room, without a care in the world, you know there is a problem. You know the problem is serious when you realise that rats have eaten and contaminated food.

At the time I was 9yrs old, so having kids around, with rats wandering around the house was a serous concern for my parents.

Dawn, I can see you are an animal lover and believe that all animals are "disposed" of in humane ways, in this country. This is not the case. As an example, the pigeon problem at Trafalagar Square was recognised as serious. People are advised to not feed pigeons as they encourage the propegation of even more disease carrying vermin. Furthermore, birds of prey were brought into the area to discourage pigeons from hanging around at Trafalgar Square. These birds of prey would occassionally rip pigeons apart. You have to be objective when dealing with infestations and you cant afford to fall in love with animals that are running riot in your home.

[JackSpratt]

Yes, to some people wild rodents are considered vermin. I happen not to be one of them; what defines vermin anyway? There are humane ways to deal with everything.

Cats are predators by nature, we can't begrudge them their instincts. I feel if a cat has caught something and it looks close to being dead you should let the cat finish the job. But if possible, definitely take the animal from the cat place it somewhere safe with a little food and water and if it does survive the shock, set it free as far away from your home as possible.

[tigerbaby]

We would kill them in the morning by pouring boiling water over them. They would die in less than 30 seconds, though they did make high pitch squeeks when they were being killed.

That is just wrong. I much rather bite the bullet and whack the mouse over it's head - it'll be dead the same moment.

I think most of us agree when we say we let the cat get on with it - it's just that sometimes the cats get bored (like my one) and we have to do the ''honours'' to end unneccessaryy suffering to the mouse. I could not just walk out of a situation where a halfdead mouse/bird would be suffering and my cat is nowhere to be seen.

LOL Jameson is a mouse bully. I wonder how he would handle a large rat?

He would battle it out. He catches pigeons and magpies bigger than him, he'll take anything on.

[Rosella moggy]

I very much hope Alison has stopped reading this thread  I certainly have.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

We would kill them in the morning by pouring boiling water over them. They would die in less than 30 seconds, though they did make high pitch squeeks when they were being killed.

If we took the rats to the vet, to be put to sleep, we probably wouldve got beaten up and thrown out. I'm not sure how a vet in this country would respond.

Cats killing mice/rats is natures way but then nature can be cruel.  As for pouring boiling water over an animal, in this country and most others I would think, it would be classed as downright cruel and inhumane.  A whack on the back of the head would have been so much kinder if it had to be done!!

[sunama]

Jameson shows no mercy to his victims. As soon as they stop struggling he'll stop playing with them and walk off, whether they're dead or not- leaving me and OH to clean up the mess. He loves it when they move - that makes him whack them again, but if they're half dead and hardly moving he doesn't think it's fun anymore.

LOL Jameson is a mouse bully. I wonder how he would handle a large rat?

[sunama]

I'm quite surprised that so many people on this forum are so caring for mice.

I would personally let the cat kill it. If it wont, then you gotta do the job yourself.

Cat killing mice is just nature's way.

As for taking the mouse to the vet - thats surely over the top. In most countries, mice, rats (and pigeons) are considered vermin. Indeed some people buy cats especially to erradicate a mouse/rat infestation that might exist in their homes.

I lived in India for 3yrs and the funny stories I can tell you about big rats (admittedly, not field mice), approximately 1KG in weight, being caught and killed by my parents. Those things had become so bold, they would walk around the house during the daytime, while we were up and about. At first we bought a small mouse trap, but the damn rats couldnt fit into it because these were big boys. After getting the extra large rat traps, the rats just about fitted in and we were catching 1 rat, every night. We would kill them in the morning by pouring boiling water over them. They would die in less than 30 seconds, though they did make high pitch squeeks when they were being killed.

If we took the rats to the vet, to be put to sleep, we probably wouldve got beaten up and thrown out. I'm not sure how a vet in this country would respond.

[tigerbaby]

Jameson shows no mercy to his victims. As soon as they stop struggling he'll stop playing with them and walk off, whether they're dead or not- leaving me and OH to clean up the mess. He loves it when they move - that makes him whack them again, but if they're half dead and hardly moving he doesn't think it's fun anymore.

Oh well, I could still not be mad at him for doing it!

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

My cats just play with them and prefer to do it in the house. I think they must be very gentle cos they are always perfect when I find them but they have died of shock.

Sometimes the recover and if that happens I have a cats hunting mouse in the house and me trying to catch it first to save it.

Have saved a couple but its currently shrews I think that they have found this week and have had two casualties in last 3 days and they go out late on the hunt every night grrrrrrrrrrr

[alisonandarchie]

Would you believe it he came in with another mouse 25mins ago, he must have found a nest

OH managed to rescue it and take it to the field. It was quite lively but had a small injury. Have now shut Archie in

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I have done that so many times  had a mouse in a box in the bathroom over night. Quiet often they are just in shock and left in a dark room for a while they recover well

I remember one time, I'd put one in a box and the phone rang, I left it on the table in the dining room and by the time I remembered, the cats had knocked the box off, the mouse was out and it was surrounded    Luckily my cats were just mesmerised and the little mouse was fine, so he got popped back into the box for safe keeping and released the following morning    

[Dark Moon]

This is hard, but you need to let the cat have the mouse.

I live in a rural area. Some of my kitties go out and they are extremely good at catching and bringing home trophies (as are the inside kitties come Fall when the mice try to come in. Foolish things!). I have hardened myself (sort-of) against the rodents, but the birds always get to me.

But, you know.....   I used to try to 'rescue' their prey, and mostly did. Only to have them (both rodents and birds) die later - doubtless a more painful - for being that much more prolonged - death. Now I just FORCE myself not to interfere. And sometimes they get away. Had Simon (he in the picture) nab a grackle this spring. Hauled it home from the barn (a good 100-150 feet) by the neck (with it flapping and all) and so into the garden. I knew that the grackle was effectively 'dead' because Simon had it (he's a phenomenal hunter) and, given the way the bird was brought home - he HAD to have spinal damage. But, to my shock, after about 5 minutes there was a thrashing in the garden and out flew the grackle - with Simon in the air after him. Simon missed. The grackle ended up in the cherry tree where he sat for minutes. Can't survive, thinks I. But he sat. For about 10 minutes. Finally flew the short (less than 3 feet) distance from there to the garage roof where he sat some more (obviously in shock). But after half an hour he shook himself and flew away.

A rare success story. Rare because, mouse, gopher, ground squirrel, or bird (because I have tried to save them all!) 99.9% of all I have tried to 'rescue' I have subsequently found dead where I lay them. I'd like to think perhaps they were able to die in more peace, but really I know I just prolonged their agony.

And I cannot be angry with the cats. They are simply doing what their nature tells them to do.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

If any of mine get a mouse and I think it's just in shock, I get a small box and place them inside overnight and then release them the following day. 

I have done that so many times  had a mouse in a box in the bathroom over night. Quiet often they are just in shock and left in a dark room for a while they recover well

[alisonandarchie]

Thanks Everyone. May go back to the field later to see how it is

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

If any of mine get a mouse and I think it's just in shock, I get a small box and place them inside overnight and then release them the following day.  I have once had to finish a mouse off that one of my evil cats had literally skinned, it was still alive and I put a brick to it as it was much quicker than letting the cat torture it      It's a horrible thing to have to do but sometimes it's necessary, nature can be so cruel 

[JackSpratt]

I can't do it either, Alison. If I find Jack (none of the others seem bothered about hunting) with a half dead mouse I normally let him finish what he's started.