PREGNANT CAT - MANCHESTER AREA 9/6/08

[Millys Mum]

Have you managed to collect her yet dawn?

[Desley (booktigger)]

i am glad Sean has agreed with you, although to be honest I would have been surprised if he hadn't.

[madkittyrescue]

no doubt it was the right decision Dawn but at least it may have put your mind at rest now that Sean has backed up your decision.
  I hope so anyway

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I've had a chat with Sean about this little one tonight and he agrees 100% with my decision.  He said he would not advise letting any cat have 5 consecutive litters in such a short space of time, not only would it be detrimental to her health but also to her unborn babies.

[JackSpratt]

...and I had to go through the heartache when it could so easily have been avoided.

I know this wasn't the main reason for your decision because you're so much about the cats! The stress that poor cats body will have gone through to have so many litters in such a short space of time doesn't bear thinking about. I can understand it influencing the decision, though. It must've been terribly traumatic.

[Gail Bengal Slave]

quote author=Dawn (DiddyDawn) link=topic=15510.msg266985#msg266985 date=1213186849]
 Cats don't choose to have babies, [/quote]


 Well Said DD      

You know what you are doing - and you have to think of Mum - It's sad that she will loose her bubbas but can she really afford to have them? will he health suffer? - these babes are already loved by us here. xxxxx

[ccmacey]

Yes I have Dawn, and said as this involves the cats health then that must come first. Obviously whats already here has priority. But if it has gone past the stage, I couldnt do it, after all they didnt ask to be here  

Prolife has 2 meaning with this situation.

[Dawn F]

that's the point they don't have the choice and can't say no to the tom down the road, sometimes we have to step in, such as when we pts, its not natures way but its the kindest way

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I only have to think about Smokies babies to realise that spaying is the best solution.  I didn't know her history, only that she was a scrapyard cat having continuous litters.  If you remember, she had 7 babies, all born mostly blind and only Emily survived    Sean had tried to persuade me to get her done when I got her in but because of my views and being pig headed, I wouldn't.  Because of that, 6 kittens died and I had to go through the heartache when it could so easily have been avoided.  I know I wouldn't have had Emily now but looking at it another way 6 babies ended up dying to save one    This episode in my life certainly made me think of the consequences of my actions.  Cats don't choose to have babies, it's up to us humans to make sure we are responsible!!

[Desley (booktigger)]

I agree that it should be something we can discuss maturely, without any personal comments towards people, as this is the way we learn, and for people like me, who have only been doing it a short time, and haven't been in this situation, it is good for us to have a discussion which could help us if we are ever in that situation. I have had 2 mum cats who have been allowed out while kittens were still with them, so potentially could have, and both were spayed regardless, as they were both 10 months old, and had already had one litter. Fortunately neither were.

I think I would have done the same as you Dawn, as she has been through so many litters already, I would be very concerned about her health, and the chance of her being able to give them enough to produce healthy babies - our first mum cat of the year had poor nutrition whilst pregnant, and I saw the effect on her babies, it wasn't a pleasant thing, and not one I want to have to go through again, or put a mum cat through again.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Although if the pregnancy has gone past a certain stage I do not agree with taking them away. I think if it has you should take up Teresa's offer.

CC, if you read my post properly, you will already see what my decision is as to whether she will be spayed or not.

[ccmacey]

How far gone is she?

With the health of the cat it wouldnt be fair to let her go through this again, after all obviously being pregnant has done this to her. There are already millions of cats needing homes why create a bigger burden?

Although if the pregnancy has gone past a certain stage I do not agree with taking them away. I think if it has you should take up Teresa's offer.

But most importantly the health and wellbeing of the cat thats already here must come first.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Thanks for the support      With the tortie I have in at the moment, if she had have been pregnant, I would definitely have made the same decision.  She has 2 babies and she is literally a bag of bones, they are taking so much out of her and again she's been bred and bred.  She has been on a/d for the last few weeks and Sean has suggested I take the babies away from her as the babies are having a detrimental effect on her health.  I think the easy decision is letting them go through a pregnancy, clear conscience and everything, the hardest decision is making the right one and I have no doubts in my mind that this is the right one.

[Liz]

Sometimes the decisions we make are not in our best interests but the cats, had I known with Gem it would have saved a lot of heartache on both sides and the expense that she racked up ( we have paid and do not begrudge it) but again cost is an implication and also the time involved, me I love vets visits late at night!

We do not begrudge gem and Brodie or Beijing but as both "parents" are only 8 months themselves sometimes it is so sad to see

Dawn you will do whats right and I will support you 100%

[madkittyrescue]

So please, lets talk about the issue but not get personal and remember that we will always disagree about such sensitive topics but perhaps because it is so sensitive, it more deserves to be discussed.

Good point Angie.... and I whole heartedly agree that personal jibes should not come into it.  As you said we all have different opinions but at the same time we all have the best interests of the cats at heart.  This is what must take priority and whether we agree 100% with the actions of another rescue we should be big enough to respect their decision especially in circumstances such as these.

In a situation such as this, whilst yes it is sad that the kittens may not be born, it is what is best for mum.  What is the point in letting her have the kittens only to perhaps lose mum through complications as she is not strong enough to cope with yet another birth this year?  

Dawn - you have weighed up the pro's and con's of this case and any decision you make should be respected whether or not we agree with it.  If in your care you are responsible for mum's well being and we should trust that you will do the best by her, of which I do.

None of us, whether right or wrong in others eyes should have to feel we are doing 'wrong' simply because others don't agree.  Discuss and debate the topic if needed but please don't put others down for their beliefs and actions.

[MBll]

Its  a lot to put on a cat or any animal having 4 litters in the same year & expect to have a fifth  cos of human preference.   Right through a pregancy, labour, droping what 5 or 6 kittens & then nursing them for the next 6/7 weeks.....its a drain on body & heath. .....& this has happened 4 TIMES.  This cat is nothing more then a breeding machine which is not right.


Imagine yourself  going through  this cos someone else wants babys from you....4 times in the year & expecting to drop litter number  5

[JackSpratt]

I must say I'm surprised by peoples responses, I really thought I was going to be the evil princess in all this by doing what I feel is best.

Not at all, Dawn. Although it's terribly sad regarding the kitten aspect, the mother cats health both psychologically and physically has to be taken into account too.

I hope she's OK.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I must say I'm surprised by peoples responses, I really thought I was going to be the evil princess in all this by doing what I feel is best.  I really appreciate all your support and I will point out, I do not take these decisions likely.............I hate abortion with a vengeance but that is my own feelings on it and no matter how I feel, I have to put my feelings aside and think of the cat in question and all the homeless/unwanted animals out there, thanks anyway   

[Angiew]

I think its good for all rescues to discuss this issue. At the end of the day our first prioity is to look after the ones we already have in our care - this we all agree on.
Though Covcats state in our handbook that it is generally felt that if kittens can be felt it is probably too late to spay, it is kept relatively vague in that at the end of the day (now this is my personal opinion) that it is up to the fosterer concerned if they feel comfortable with the procedure. I would hate to loose a valued fostered (and they are not like gold dust but bloody great big nuggets of the stuff!) by forcing them to make a decision about a cat in their care that they are not happy about.

As Adel says, ultimately it should be the responsibility of the people 'out there' to be sensible and do right but it is us that pick up the pieces and are forced to make life and death decisions - whether this be to spay a pregnant queen or even to find that extra space to take in a cat in need. I know of one young stray that was reported to me , that I didn't take in and she was subsequently run over in an RTA - thats one I don't forget after several years.
This is the reality of rescue, we try to help as many as possible in the best way each of us sees fit and while we may disagree with some of the things other rescues do, it is up to each rescue.
I like to debate such things as I am always open to learning and changing my attitude and if these things aren't discussed then I feel I lose out personally which can then have a knock on effect on the cats in my care.
I think if we weren't so overburdened we would all not consider aborting and of course there is the health of the mother and litter to consider. We have seen recently (with Gems litter) that things ae not always striaghtforward. 

So please, lets talk about the issue but not get personal and remember that we will always disagree about such sensitive topics but perhaps because it is so sensitive, it more deserves to be discussed.

[wharfevalley catsprotection]

Thanks DD for this. Here at our branch, we spay whislt pregnant (up to a point of course) and although none of us like it, it really is one of the only ways that we can save mums/cut down on unwanted kittens etc etc.

I think more than anything, this thread shows that whatever side of the fence you're on, couldn't it all be saved by people having their cats neutered? 

[Dawn F]

what a situation for the poor cat to be in, surely that many litters in a year can only be detrimental to her health

[Gail Bengal Slave]

it's sad and I hate to think of her having her babies taken away from her   

 but I think you are right DD - it's not fair on this little lass to have to go through it again. Poor little babe, xxxxx

[Desley (booktigger)]

Aww, teh poor baby - I am glad she is doing to be spayed, the poor baby doesnt need to have a 5th litter.

[koscha (Ruth M)]

I support your decision to ease this little ladies burden and get her spayed, i really dread to think what condition this little lady is in having been thorough so many pregnancies in such a short time....especially if she hasn't been cared for well on top of it.
Sometimes it is best to put the mummy first.... 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

How old is this little girl? So many litters already.

I think the lady said she was 5 but up until last year, she very rarely went out and since then they haven't been able to keep her in, every time they wanted to get her spayed she was pregnant so again it was delayed

sometimes you have to look at what is best for mum not the babies.

4 litters in a year is a rediculous number of pregnancy and births to go through.... 9 weeks per pregnancy, then all the weeks of raising.... people should do the math... this poor wee thing has been a permanent baby machine for the last year.  Does she deserve to go through this for a 5th time.... I'm surprised she would even have the strength to get through yet another pregnancy without complications.  Surely it would be just as 'cruel' to allow her to have the babies???? 

.

Exactly, and this is why if I can get her in, she will be going regardless of others comments.

[JackSpratt]

How old is this little girl? So many litters already.

Good luck with this little one.

[MBll]

 She has had 4 litters in a year and I'm not letting her go through a 5th if it can be avoided.  

4 litters in 1 year is to many  this poor cat is a breeding machine due to incapable unresponsible humans there is no need for her to  make it a fifth.  For many reasons....she will not thank you for it.

[madkittyrescue]

sometimes you have to look at what is best for mum not the babies.

By the sounds of things mum has been through enough already and if Dawn feels that it is in the mum cats best interests to not go through another draining pregnancy and birth and rearing of kittens... then she should be allowed to make that decision without fear of criticism or of being branded as heartless because of her actions.

Revised to add....

4 litters in a year is a rediculous number of pregnancy and births to go through.... 9 weeks per pregnancy, then all the weeks of raising.... people should do the math... this poor wee thing has been a permanent baby machine for the last year.  Does she deserve to go through this for a 5th time.... I'm surprised she would even have the strength to get through yet another pregnancy without complications.  Surely it would be just as 'cruel' to allow her to have the babies???? 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Dawn
I am publically offering Pen space for this cat so that she may be allowed to have her babies; I have taken many cats from you in the past so you know the high level of care given at Paws Inn. The decision is yours, I will not post again on this thread ,you have my details should you choose to use them.

I know this post has been made to make me look bad but sorry I've made my decision.  She has had 4 litters in a year and I'm not letting her go through a 5th if it can be avoided.  Thanks for the offer anyway.

[Teresa Pawcats]

Dawn
I am publically offering Pen space for this cat so that she may be allowed to have her babies; I have taken many cats from you in the past so you know the high level of care given at Paws Inn. The decision is yours, I will not post again on this thread ,you have my details should you choose to use them.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I agree entirely.  If I, in conscience, had expressed an opinion, I would be broken-hearted that it had been removed.

This isn't about people's feelings though, this is about what is best for the cat.

[Christine (Blip)]

why are all the good, thought provoking debates always removed!

I agree entirely.  If I, in conscience, had expressed an opinion, I would be broken-hearted that it had been removed.

[Millys Mum]

edited to say - damn why are all the good, thought provoking debates always removed!

I agree, things get heated but if it can open the eyes of people that dont think then its a good thing. Alot of guests read who may not realise the extent of the problem and decide against their "just one litter"

I agree with dawns decision

[Angiew]

As with all sidetracked threads the side track is a very interesting one!

I had the self same chaat with the vet this afternoon! Two Queens in to be spayed (one of them a ftgh that I picked up last week) and as her kttens was 12 weeks old, i expected her to be preg and told him not to spay if she was. He asked why and I said though not a prolifer etc, It just seemed that if a life had started it was for us to look after it.

Having said that hthough, I wouldn't be upset if a cat was found to be pregnant when spayed.....

And his argument was that they are too many kittens, CP here having some that they cannot home and we have 4 8 week olds with no homes lined up yet.

edited to say - damn why are all the good, thought provoking debates always removed!

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Surely there must be one vet in manchester that would spay a not very pregnant cat 

Sadly I haven't got time to find one and plus she will probably need funding to get her done.  Hopefully I can get her sorted before it's too late for a spay.  I have had an offer off someone this afternoon who has offered to pick her up, they are going to Manchester the next few days so I may be able to get her in.

[Millys Mum]

Surely there must be one vet in manchester that would spay a not very pregnant cat 

[madkittyrescue]

Ok let me know how you get on... but the offer is there if you need it

[wharfevalley catsprotection]

Thanks Dawn  You're a star!

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Thanks hun    I've got a couple of mates that I might be able to rope in for fostering, so I'll see what I can do 

[madkittyrescue]

wish i was closer to help Dawn... but if I can be of any help at all just shout  even if it means a relay 'up north'. 

Is there no-one else near your area that could help out??