Too soon to go to the bridge.

[cat man do]

Thats great news

[ccmacey]

Wow how long was this thread started

No worries any more, Ollie had his teeth out 2 weeks ago and he's doing fine. He has no problem eating either and looks like he's putting on weight.

Yes £500 was what I was told it would be from the other vets, when in reality it cost me £189.

[Teresa Pawcats]

Two of my boys have suffered with severe gum problems since they began teething and nothing seemed to help. The whole of the gums were bright red and very inflamed.
They boys were tested for FIV, Felv, FCov all came back negative but we got a positive on Calicivirus.
Last Friday I had the boys neutered and at the same time they both received a one off injection of interferon into their gums,within 48 hours I could see improvement and both boys appear to improve daily.
Think it may be worth getting tests done first so you know what you are dealing with and then discussing treatment options when results are back.

[swampmaxmum]

Some brief info on Interferon as I used it for years to prevent eye infections in Swampcat (alpha interferon). Virbagen comes in eye drops too and my SA vet thought they work better than the injections, which are prohibitively expensive and often unsuccessful.  A short treatment shouldn't affect the liver, but chronic treatment might, so think it's normal to do blood tests too.  It's pretty strong stuff. In SA they use it a lot (or did) but not Virbagen, rather the human Interferon A - a spin off from all the human AIDS research into boosting immune systems. Has to be kept in the fridge and has a limited shelf life even then.  If your vet wants you to try that, I'd ask about 1 lots of drops and see how it goes?

[LesleyW]

Thanks Mark.

[Mark]

There is another thread in Health & Behaviour - Ollie had all his teeth out a while ago and the last we heard, he is running about and on the mend  - Hopefully there will be another update soon 

http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php?topic=11363.0

[LesleyW]

CC I can really sympathise with you here.  I have a cat here at the moment, Kay-Cee, who is going through similar problems, will be posting later when I have time. 

I think you need to ask the Vets, be it PDSA or Private, to do more blood tests and test for calici etc.  This sounds like more than gingivitis, and stomatitis does spring to mind.

Keep strong for Ollie.  Sending lots of  to both of you .

[Ela]

I have only just caught up with this thread, I am astounded with the quote of £500 for a full dental. I have had loads of cats needing this, (fangs only left) and never paid any where near £200 let alone £500.

[cat man do]

Interferons are chemicals produced by the body in response to a viral attack. They were discovered in the 50's.

3 types in humans. Gamma, alpha and beta interferon.

gamma interferon used to be used to treat MS but was found to exacerbate the condition. Beta interferon is now considered to help in ms relapses during the first phase of the illness. It is not a cure. I dont know how this would work in this condition but guess it would aid in maintaining the viral load to a low level to reduce symptoms. I feel it isnt a cure.

Alpha and beta interferon as far as I know work opposite gamma interferon. They antagonise each other.

Main syptoms in human use include flu like symptoms, but it can cause problems with blood count and liver function. In humans, regular blood tests are neccesary to monitor this.

I hope this helps

[CurlyCatz]

having just been directed to this link i have scanned through many of the posts..phew !!

i was going to say it sounded like a stomatitis aswell as gingivitus but then read it was LOL....ive got quite a few points to make so bare with me.

1) re the pdsa's ... this is a charity and didnt use to be goverment funded (not sure on current info) and they are there to provide the same level of veterinary care as private vets altho cost restraints have to be considered and they do not always have access to the more expensive drugs...but some had advised "go to a real vet" etc..make no doubt there is no difference to pdsa vets as to private ones and lots if not most will have worked in both.  Also the pdsa is there for peeps to FALL BACK ON when they are having financial difficultys and cannot afford private vet care, they should not be seen as a right of passage. (believe me having emptyed their donation box in practice its soul destroying to see the junk including buttons etc that peeps put in the donation envelopes, however this paying cheaper prices is new to me as a couple of years ago you didnt pay anything so obviously there has been a change in atleast some centres)

2) I would have gone with getting atleast these cheek teeth removed. it is much more difficult to remove healthy teeth and there fore would be a more difficult procedure, very often due to the fragiliy of feline teeth the roots will often snap as they are being removed even under the hands of the most careful and competant vet or vet nurse (amanda why did you mention helping the vets or watching them ?? do you not carry out these procedures yourself, are you not qualified/does you boss not let you carry out schedule 3 etc)   If it was me about to carry out that dental i would be saying " i will endevour to remove the whole tooth inc roots however there is a risk that this may not be possible and in that case we will nibble the root down to BELOW gum level" ... it is fairly well known that roots left in cats cause far far less problems than roots left in dogs and esp humans, providing they are taken to below gum line and gum then stitched up. (that doesnt mean the roots WILL NOT cause future trouble but often they dont)

3) I would be quite concerned that ollie hasnt been on the best antibiotics for this, i mentioned to cc earlier today about antirobe, i'd have thought a double dose for extended length of time  would be appropriate and atleast "worth a bash"

4) has any non steriodal anti inflammatories been given ? i would have thought that might also be worth a try.

5) i agree with amanda that swabbing etc would seem non invasive and appropriate and surely not too expensive..i cant see why there would be any constraints on the pdsa to do that.

5) i am unclear as to virus tests that have been done ? has ollie been tested for fiv and felv and were these tests virus isolation ??

6) i have already mentioned today re the steriods so dont need to go over that again but really think dosage and dosing days needs to be looked at.

7) i think the interferon sounds like a hopeful remedy..could this be discussed further and funds found ? sorry i dont know how much it is etc but perhaps teresa or someone could help more there as she's had hands on experience.

6) my very first port of call would be to get full set of bloods done to make sure everything is ok after the dosage and length of times he's been on the steriods esp given thats hes permanently cold.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Also, i found it interesting that when some vets used it for FIP it seems to have worked wonders.

Going to read that now !

[Amanda (mad4moggies)]

CC, i really would suggest that somehow you get a vet to do the relevant tests - whether that be a gum biopsy, or swab him for calici etc before deciding what treatment to go with. The reason is that the treatment for chronic gingivitis would be steroids and antibiotics but usually if it was this then the treatment would show a big improvement in the gums. We had a cat at work on Friday that had had sever gingivitis and a week of steroids/ab`s has really helped. If it turns out to be feline chronic lymphocytic plasmacytic gingivitis then as the article says the treatment needed is very different as it is an immune condition.

I`ll post a couple of links about interferon but for the actual interferon website you might not be able to access it all as you need to be a vet/nurse. Interferon is meant to be very successful at treating this but as Milly`s mum has suggested it can be quite expensive. It all depends how much the vet needs to use and how often. I think you`d really want to be sure that this is what he has before using the interferon treatment. You could get either the private vet or the PDSA to phone Diane Addie if you wanted further information. As far as i know she is still based at the University of Glasgow and i know other vets that have spoken to her directly about things in the past.


Here is the link for the Interferon site http://www.virbagenomega.com/

And here is a link to a site where vets that have used interferon to treat various conditions have posted comments on the outcomes. Also, i found it interesting that when some vets used it for FIP it seems to have worked wonders.

http://vetinterferon.nexenservices.com/reports.php?site=interferon&lang=eng

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Yes received and replied xx

[ccmacey]

Michelle I just sent pm, dont know if you got it? comps doing funny things! Cleveland is where I am. Thanks.

[Millys Mum]

does anyone know what this treatment is?

 interferon omega (Virbagen; Virbac).

Its the same as what Amanda has suggested, although it is expensive, around £100 vial. Its injected into the gums.
Theres a post about it here: http://www.chaptanservices.com/purrs/index.php?topic=1486.0

CC, i know you dont want to lose him but the only help we can offer is get him treated by a private vet who isnt cutting corners. It sounds like he needs some proper tests run, and quickly as his condition is deteriorating.

[ccmacey]

 It is very important that the entire tooth be removed, so careful extraction is
necessary. If a portion of the root is left behind in cats with chronic
gingivostomatitis, there is often a continued reaction at the site that the
root is retained.

And the vet is suggesting to leave the roots in!

[ccmacey]

Found this on the net- does anyone know what this treatment is?

Chronic gingivostomatitis is a common debilitating disease in cats, which is often refractory to medical and surgical treatment. An eight-year-old, neutered female domestic shorthair cat with a history of gingivitis was presented with chronic gingivostomatitis. Initial treatment by extraction of all premolars and molars was unsuccessful. However, the condition resolved within six weeks of treatment with feline recombinant interferon omega (Virbagen; Virbac).

This is an extract from a vet page.

[ccmacey]

Thanks guys. If I did get Ollie insured it would not cover his treatment as it is an existing one. The reason I'm asking for help is that I don't want to loose him, so what would be the point in rehoming him, as this to me would be him gone from my life and I cant do that! I know I cant at the moment afford his expensive treatment but it doesn't mean that I'm just going to pass the problem on to someone else. The PDSA haven't done any tests they are just going off the tests he had done at the PV, I think, when I go for an appointment they just look at the cat give me some tablets and say see you in a month, When I try to ask questions they just say they don't know! Questions about other treatments that is. And I don't think going to the papers would help, another reason for throwing me out, as I already think they are peed off at me for going to someone higher.

Amanda what is that Interferon treatment? Yes I think that is the gingivitis he has.

[Amanda (mad4moggies)]

I`d be a bit worried about the diagnosis they have made based on just the FIV/FeLV tests as the link suggests further biopsies are needed to determine that it is actually an immune mediated disease. I still think that by the sounds of it the teeth do really need to come out but any treatment after this will depend on what is actually wrong in the first place. If it is feline chronic lymphocytic plasmacytic gingivitis then the Interferon treatment is meant to be very successful but i guess this will be adding to the costs.  Also, has the little one been swabbed for Calici virus?

[Millys Mum]

at least everything else would be covered?

Yes it would, and i agree to insure for any other future probs. I didnt want CC to think she could insure for the future care of his mouth.

[Millys Mum]

The papers may work, but you mustn't name and shame or you may get your backside sued!

If it doesnt work then maybe a small loan could be sorted out.

[Christine (Blip)]

Any future oral things will be blamed on it, they would wiggle out of paying.

You are right, I'm sure they'd try, Milly's Mum. But, even if they got away with that, at least everything else would be covered?

[Millys Mum]

Surely it is just the pre-existing condition that would not be covered and the op should solve that?

Any future oral things will be blamed on it, they would wiggle out of paying. I read the case of a lady whose cat was diagnosed with CRF but her insurance wouldnt pay because the cat had a UTI 6 years previous and they claimed that had caused kidney damage. Which is possible if they had a serious blockage/infection but this cat had had a bout of cystitis!  

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

CC - Go to the papers !!!
Have them run a story about Ollie and the terrible choice you are being given because you cant afford the Op.
PDSA wont want the bad press and you might get a kind Vet offer to do the Op for nothing or cheap !

Just Bumping this again because the more i think about it i think it could have a good out come

After all
PDSA offer is not an option
PV is not an option
Rehoming him is not an option
At end of the day you have nothing to loose by trying this !

[Christine (Blip)]

The probs about rehoming that it would need a very rich benefactor cos insurance is out of the question, unless somebody like CP would take him in and pay for the right treatment before rehoming him.

Surely it is just the pre-existing condition that would not be covered and the op should solve that?

Doing what the PDSA have suggested, filing his teeth and leaving the roots in. Which for me isn't really an option I would just like to know what you all think. Or just carry on as we are now.  I know this isn't really an option either, but I don't want to put him through anymore pain than I have to.

As CC says, these aren't options. So I have to agree with Milly's Mum, CC - unless you can raise the funds for private veterinary treatment and then get Ollie insured...

 

[Millys Mum]

CP or an independant rescue would possibly take him on and sort him.
A full extraction isnt going to cost a mega amount so you wouldnt need to be rich to fund him, i think £300-£400 would more than cover it, and living in Essex the vet bills aren't the cheapest.
Once removed the big costs are over.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Sorry Milly missed your first post about rehoming.

Yes if it goes to the papers then it should also be made clear that this cat needs to see a specialist in the field in order to get the right treatment.

The probs about rehoming that it would need a very rich benefactor cos insurance is out of the question, unless somebody like CP would take him in and pay for the right treatment before rehoming him.

[Millys Mum]

Thats why i suggested rehoming, in the best interests of the cat, he needs action and he wont get it if cc cant find a way to fund him from her own pocket.
If it were my cat i would try what Michelle has suggested about the papers and see if it could be wangled that way but if not then i would have no choice but to find him a new home. Better that than pts.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

CC - Go to the papers !!!
Have them run a story about Ollie and the terrible choice you are being given because you cant afford the Op.
PDSA wont want the bad press and you might get a kind Vet offer to do the Op for nothing or cheap !

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

i know milly but cc cant afford vet bill to get ollie better care. i thought pdsa were a respnsible group but it does not seem to be the case.
 anymore.
they have treated ollie wrong from the start and it looks like they are just working on reduced costs now without giving prper care 

[Millys Mum]

Gill, his current course of action isnt working, 2 years of antibiotics & preds and his mouth is getting worse and he's mildly depressed. Then the PDSA will just go oh dear, lets bung him on some Diazepam, instead of doing something now which will give him 10+ years of happy life.
For such a young cat this op would give him back quality of life.

The PDSAs response to this has really angered me. A friend of mine took in a stray, and because of his history they wouldnt vaccinate him without snap testing first. As if he had fiv he wouldnt be "worth it". They are starting to smell like the RSPCA.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I dont think the last two options are any good, its so sad you cant afford to see a real specialist in this but if you cant get the teeth out then you may have to continue as you are. Filing the teeth down is absolutely not an option.

What worries me is the steroid and antibiotic treatment cos if you read the link, steroids should not be used.

[Millys Mum]

The teeth allow the bacteria to enter his gums, therefore removing the teeth seals up the 'entry point'. The immune system reacts to the plaque on the tooth, so again without the tooth being there it cant react to it.
The cats i know who have had a complete extraction have no longterm meds, but you really need to think about your next move. The PDSA option is a no go and you cant afford to go private so as much as you'll hate me for saying this you may need to think about rehoming him to somebody who has the funding to sort him out properly. A life on steroids will only turn into a problematic one and they aren't helping to control his condition at the moment.
Its a tough call but he needs to be under the care of a vet who isnt counting pennies.

[ccmacey]

They said as his teeth are in good condition it will be harder to take them out, it would be easier if they were rotting. He's on steroids and anti b's at the moment.

[ccmacey]

Thanks Des.

Its more of the gums and the inside cheek thats red and inflamed, and they will bleed easily. His teeth are fine, so maybe taking them out wouldn't help? I'm fed up now and really cant make a decision for the best. I wish the vets would tell me plain and simple, look this is what were going to do and this is what will happen, but obviously they cant as they don't know themselves.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Hmm - they shoudl be able to give you a rough estimate to take all the teeth out, they only dont normally know in case they need to take more out. Does he have any other meds, as if not, he may not need lifelong meds, or you may be able to get htem online cheaper. I would have thought that if you take the teeth out, there isnt' a lot for the immune system to attack, but dont know enough about that kind of gingivitis. If I get chance later, I will post it on the other cat forum I use, and see what peoplet hink

[ccmacey]

Just phoned the PV, they said £45 for a scale & polish, and tooth extraction from £90 onward. They couldn't give me an inclusive price as she said it goes by the time it takes to do. So therefore it could amount to hundreds. She also said I would have to make sure that if he still needed treatment that the pdsa would take me back as I would be left with the cost for the rest of his life. She said she has had people come to them from the pdsa and because they have went to a PV the pdsa has refused to take them back on because of this. She also said they would never use the filing of the teeth as an option, she doesn't think this would save time.

So I'm left with 3 choices

Taking him to a PV and having his teeth out and probably get threw out of the PDSA, which would be very costly and I wouldn't be able to afford lifelong medication from the PV. As we all know how much they over charge!

Doing what the PDSA have suggested, filing his teeth and leaving the roots in. Which for me isn't really an option I would just like to know what you all think.

Or just carry on as we are now.  I know this isn't really an option either, but I don't want to put him through anymore pain than I have to.

Does anyone who has had this problem with their cats know of a herbal treatment that would at least ease the soreness and take the redness away?

And I have just thought, seem so it is his immune system attacking the cells in his mouth, that wont stop because of a few teeth out, would it?

Boggled once again. 

Thanks for helping me with this peeps.

[ccmacey]

Hi all, yes I'm horrified at what the pdsa have suggested, its barbaric and i don't see how that would help at all, probably kill him. I told you i think they are trying to kill him, what could i say if he didn't make it through the op? Well he is not having it. Been busy so going to phone the PV later this afternoon.

About the tests- I had Ollie tested for FIV/FELV at PV before I started using the PDSA, which is strange as the pdsa don't seem to want to do anymore tests to see if anything else has developed, they just go off the results from them tests early 2005, They are absolute  .

Thats my point about the medication, I'm just going along with what the vet says cos obviously he should know what he's talking about. 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Just had a look at that link and you need to scroll down it cos the click links dont work.

However what is really disturbing is that PDSA have been giving Ollie steroids and antibiotics, and I may be wrong but the antibiotic not recommended looks familiar. That site says NO STEROIDS in big red letters.

As everyone has said on here, the main recommendation is for all teeth including roots to be removed, which PDSA have told CC they would not do.

I remain horrified by what PDSA have done and have recommended.

There is on there a recommendation of food which possible combined with other treatment may help but what damage will have been done by the steroids I wonder.

My brothers Maine Coone had Calichi and very bad gingervitus and his vet also recommended streroids for the rest of his life or removal of all teeth, my brother who works in NHS opted for the latter cos he was not happy about the steroid use long term and what a right decision he made!

If you could get this info Amanda why havent PDSA, are they just lazy or totally incompitent? I will put this link in our links section, thanks very much.

Where are you CC, did you speak to other vets?

[Amanda (mad4moggies)]

CC, i have found a fantastic link that describes the condition you have mentioned. This lady really knows her stuff. What tests has the vet done to come to the diagnosis that they have?

http://www.dr-addie.com/stomatitis.html