New Egyptian Mau and Bengal kittens

[Tiggy's Mum]

Looks like normal kitten play to me aswell, the boys (brothers who  each other)  often have a rough and tumble which looks similar to your two playfighting except mine don't make any noise.  I noticed half way through that whilst laying on his back being 'attacked' the little Bengal was munching on a rubber band so he can't have been too bothered by Reflex!  Incidentally rubber bands are very bad for them so I'd get rid of it quickly before one of them decides to eat it!

[sunama]

don't forget the bengal is younger, as he gets older and learns how to use his body better he will start to be a handful for any cat

Good point. But I remember when I first got Reflex (1 month ago), he was a lot more agile, faster and active than the Bengal has been at the same age. I think the Egyptian Mau breed itself is a breed that is more active and faster than the Bengal. Even when at the breeder's house, Reflex was running non-stop, which was not the case with the Bengal. I think what Reflex needs is an F1 Bengal or Savannah to play with - unfortunately this aint gonna happen, so he will have to make do with his Bengal friend.

I still feel that there is a lot more to come from the Bengal, as he is still getting used to his new surroundings. He is also having to deal with a very fast/energetic cat, from a different breed, for the first time - something he will not have experienced before.

Another point of note is that I dont think the Bengal breeder exercised the Bengal a lot, so he isn't used to the climbing/jumping/running that Reflex does on a daily basis when I exercise him.

In a months time, we shall see if the story is any different.

[hOrZa]

don't forget the bengal is younger, as he gets older and learns how to use his body better he will start to be a handful for any cat

[sunama]

how about sansom, he got beaten up by a little guy!

Hehehe. Reflex aint so little but I shall keep Sansom on my shortlist.

In size, the Bengal is longer, while Reflex is taller (long back legs).
Reflex is super lean and muscular.
In appearance they are very similar in size, but Reflex is heavier and has a thicker waist.

Minutes after the play fighting, I took this:



They seem to be comfortable eating from the same bowl, side by side. 24hrs this would have been impossible.

And 15 mins later, they are getting ready to sleep:



They are now fast asleep.

[blackcat]

how about sansom, he got beaten up by a little guy!

[sunama]

Ok thanks for that. It lays my mind to rest.

The first night I had to keep Reflex (Egyptian Mau) in my bedroom, to allow the Bengal to sleep in the lounge, without being interfered with. So last night was the first night both slept in the same room. It had looked liked both had already had some face-offs, when I woke up, but the Bengal wasn't injured or shaken up. Its reassuring to know that they are behaving as expected.

I still dont know what to call the Bengal. His pedigree name is Mister Bengal (Reflex's pedigree name is MisterMau), however, I havent yet given the Bengal his pet-name. I was thinking of Colossus, as his parents are large and it is likely that the Bengal will grow big and strong like his parents. The problem now though, is that the Bengal is being comprehensively beaten up by Reflex, hence, Colossus wouldnt exactly be an appropriate name. The Bengal seems lazy in comparison to Reflex, so maybe 'LazyBones'. I shall decide later this week, as his personality becomes clearer, bearing in mind that he has only been with me for about 50hrs.

[blackcat]

yep, nothing to worry about there, perfectly normal kitten play. All kitten play is learning-based. And they are learning to protect themselves. The mau seems to be backing off when told he has gone too far, and the bengal seems perfectly happy with life as is evidenced by the independent play he is involved in at the latter end of the tape. There is nothing there that would warrant intervention of any kind, and certainly not 'lock-down' time. They are just two high-energy kittens, which is to be expected given their breeds. Does the bengal have a name. I am not happy having to refer to them by their 'breed'. It depersonalises them and they are clearly two very high-character babes!

[hOrZa]

I looks just like my two when i got them (brothers) bit more vocal but the play fighting looks the same


hth

edit: forgot to say they look awesome

[sunama]

Right guys, I took a video of the 2 cats this morning fighting. Can you you tell me if this is normal? This is day 3.

standard quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsWXOx3LMCc

high quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsWXOx3LMCc&fmt=18

For what its worth, the Bengal looks a lot more confident in his behaviour now and the Mau is able to come very close to him without the constant hissing. My gut feeling tells me they are getting comfortable with one another now. The Egyptian Mau does have a higher energy level though, so the Bengal tends to run out of the room, after about 20mins of play fighting.

I've checked both cats and neither of them have any injury markings. There are no tufts of fur anywhere in the house. I also cut the Bengal's claws yesterday as my legs are now covered in scratches and wounds (blood) - he seems to not understand just how sharp his claws are.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

In my experience, dominance in cats is not to do with size and strength but with character and history. Reflex may be dominant because he was the cat who was there first, and it may change with time.

Dominance in cats is not always obvious and clear cut either.  Sometimes one cat will appear more dominant in one situation but less so in another.  Cats don't have a rigid dominance hierarchy like dogs, and it can be very fluid.  I couldn't have told you who was most dominant between Jaffa and his brother Magpie.  I don't think either exhibited obvious dominance behaviour towards the other.  With Jaffa and Mosi, Mosi arrived as a dominant kitten (I was told by the breeder that he was the most dominant and active kitten in the litter and that he would grow up to be a dominant cat)  and tried to dominate Jaffa.  He failed because he was so much smaller and Jaffa is also a dominant cat.  It was always Mosi that started anything and Jaffa who defended himself and made it clear who is in charge.  I think Jaffa still has the edge now, but their relationship has evolved a lot over the past 2 years.  Size wise they are about the same height, but Jaffa is heavier and more muscular than Mosi, whereas Mosi is more athletic.

The relationship between your 2 will change a lot as the grow and develop.  They may not grow at the same rate, socially as well as physically.  It may be that in time, your bengal will appear the more dominant cat or it may appear to change a lot as they sort themselves out.  But cat play is essentially about practising the skills they need as adult cats and often appears more serious than it is.  I used to put Mosi in time out sometimes if he got too rough.  Mainly at bedtime when they'd both been fed and Jaffa was settling down on the bed.  If Mosi started to jump on him and annoy him, I'd put him in another room for a few minutes to calm down.  I adapted the human rule for children of 1 minute per year of life to one minute per month of life!!  It worked well but I'd be wary of over using it and preventing them from sorting things out.  Reflex needs to learn to read the signals your bengal is giving out and adapt his behaviour according to those. 

[moiramassey]

Hi Sunama.

The cats are playing, really, not fighting! Honest. I am sure that yours are too.

If one of my kittens is dominant it is the little female, Mitzi, the Siamese/Bengal cross. In my experience, dominance in cats is not to do with size and strength but with character and history. Reflex may be dominant because he was the cat who was there first, and it may change with time. With mine, Mitzi was the smallest kitten in her litter but easily the most outgoing and determined. Unlike yours, my kittens knew each other from almost the beginning, as Flynn was fostered on Mitzi's mum when Mitzi was 2 weeks and Flynn was 4 weeks.

You may be right in that you have, by accident, encouraged Reflex to be rough. While I understand that you want to protect the smaller kitten, I would not put Reflex in the carrier for more than 5 minutes at a time and I would not interfere unless I was 100% sure Reflex was hurting the other kitten. It would be best if they sorted it out for themselves.

Oh and Mitzi is very vocal rather Flynn is relatively quiet - the odd chirp, lots of purrs and a growl when he is protecing his favourite toy from Mitzi.

[sunama]

Hey Moira. That pic of your 2 cats fighting are exactly what I am experiencing right now. Though obviously there is a lot of squealing and noise. The Egyptian Mau is the one who instigates it all, but he doesnt make a sound at all now. He is physical, while the Bengal is vocal. Also, your pic shows the Egyptian Mau on his back. That never happens with mine. The only cat on its back is the Bengal - the Egyptian Mau is in total control, during the entire fight.

Moira, I'm actually wondering if the Egyptian Mau breed is quite dominant and is therefore making the 2 week advantage (in your case) and 4 week advantage (in my case), look more significant than it really is. If it was the Bengal who was a few weeks older, I think that the Egyptian Mau would still be the more dominant. The fact that Egyptian Maus are the fastest domestic cat in the world, would tell us that they are the most athletic, which implies that they would probably be physically superior to all domestic cats (F1 Savannahs and Bengals, accepted, due to their wild genes).

During the month I have had Reflex, I have played with him A LOT - lots of climbing, running and hunting games. As he has become a rougher, I too have been quite rough with him, which means he has learnt to play rough. On top of all this, I have made sure that Reflex is fed many times a day. This has helped him develop his muscles, with the aid of all the physical training. The new Bengal on the other hand, is EXTREMELY gentle and clearly hasn't had any rough treatment. He probably also hasn't had the climbing, running and hunting training that Reflex has had.

A few minutes ago, Reflex went nuts and chased the Bengal pretty hard, so Ive had to put Reflex in the cat carrier for 5 mins. I'm hoping that he might learn that everytime he attacks the Bengal, he ends up in the cat carrier.

[moiramassey]

Hi Sunama, Sorry I haven't been on in a while.

Firstly, a month is a long time in terms of kitten development. My Egyptian Mau, Flynn, is only 2 weeks older than my Siamese/Bengal cross, Mitzi, but even that meant he was significantly further developed. Flynn is now 6 months 3 weeks and Mitzi is 6 months 1 week.

Flynn and Mitzi play fight all the time. I think you just have to let the kittens sort themselves out unless you really think one is getting hurt.

Some pictures of Flynn and Miti. Mitzi is the black one. Flynn is a 'pet quality' silver Egyptian Mau.

[sunama]

The only time Ive seen the Bengal in distress was when he was being harrassed for about 20mins by the Mau, at which point he went to get out of the room, but the door was closed. At this point, I got hold of the Mau and popped him in the cat carrier for 5 mins, to calm him down. I am doing this every time I feel that the Mau is getting too aggressive. I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do.

With regards to dominance, the Bengal is already laying down on his back in the presence of the Mau, yet the Mau keeps hammering home the point that he is dominant.

This is my first set of cats and I have no idea how to tell if the play-fighting is normal or not.

When the Mau attacks the Bengal, the Bengal initially stands his ground, but it usually ends up in him running away, as quick as he can and squealing for all he is worth.

The Egyptian Mau is way ahead of the Bengal, in terms of physical and mental ability, yet there is only a month between the 2. Both are still young at 3 and 4 months old.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Aww    They look like they're getting on just fine in that pic!

Cats can play fight very roughly and it's normal to pin each other to the floor, attempt to bite the neck etc.  That is normal dominance behaviour.  The time to get worried is if Reflex bites your bengal badly or injures him, or if your bengal is telling him to let go (squeeling) and he won't.  Or if your bengal is acting stressed when around Reflex, even when they're not actually interacting.  They sound like 2 lively, dominant cats who are feeling their way around and establishing boundaries.

Personally, I would keep the claws trimmed on both of them.  The last thing you want is for one of them to get accidentally scratched in the eye during normal play.

[sunama]

Both have already been neutered.

How would I know that bloodshed is imminent. By the look of their fights so far, they look pretty vicious to me...especially the Egyptian Mau. They are both around the same size and I just dont think that size is the deciding factor here. The Mau is not only more intelligent and has sharper senses, but he is stronger, faster and physically superior in all areas. Once the Bengal grows heavier/bigger than the Mau, I still cant see the Mau being beaten due to his intelligence, speed and overall sharpness.

From what I can see, the Bengal isnt injured or bleeding. Right now he is sitting about 12" away from the Mau, as shown in the pic below:



The above pic suggests that there isnt too much of a problem between the 2. I think Reflex just wants a break right now, so isnt bothering to attack the Bengal. And the Bengal is pretty laid back - he can get on with any cat.

When I bring out the toys for the Mau, the Bengal joins in, at which point the Mau's attention is diverted to attacking the Bengal. So, while the Bengal is attacking the toy, the Mau is attacking the Bengal.

The Bengal's claws are razor sharp right now and Ive drawn A LOT of blood, as he is unintentially, cutting me. I need to cut the claws, but cant as thats the only advantage he has right now over the Mau (I cut the Mau's claws every week, without fail).

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

It all sounds very normal and I agree that you should let them sort it out among themselves without interfering, provided neither is getting physically hurt or is becoming distressed.  At their age a lot of it will be boisterous play.  If your mau is more dominant than your bengal, it's likely they'll get the pecking order sorted out and your bengal will eventually accept the mau as a more dominant cat.  Alternatively, as your bengal becomes more confident in your new home, he may become more dominant and challenge your mau.  Either way, they'll very likely come to an agreement that suits them both.  When I got Mosi, he wanted to be the most dominant cat but Jaffa had other ideas and would just sit on him    They are both dominant cats but Jaffa was obviously bigger then, being an adult cat to Mosi's kitten, and now that Mosi is almost fully grown he still weighs a bit less than than Jaffa as he's a smaller boned cat, so doesn't have much success trying to dominate him.  He will still try from time to time and sometimes Jaffa has to hiss or growl at him, but things are ok between them most of the time as Mosi seems to have accepted that he's not going to win this one.  If your mau seems to be bothering your bengal, you could try to divert his energy into a game by getting out da bird or something and tiring him out 

I would try to get them neutered sooner rather than later though - you don't really want a load of testosterone adding to the equation.

[blackcat]

like i said. Normal. Don't interfere with them unless bloodshed is imminent. They need to sort it out between themselves.

[sunama]

The Bengal is very brave. His problem is that he thinks he is stronger than he really is. The Mau is very tentative and worried about the Bengal. his problem is that he thinks he is weaker than he really is.

1hr ago, after eating, the Mau decided to go all out and attack the Bengal. Everytime I broke them up, the Mau would be on top of the Bengal, turn him over and show his dominance.

I'm not sure if this normal for a 3-4month old pair of kittens.

[blackcat]

not really a problem, more normal kitten behaviour to sort out who to be the top cat. I would only intervene if bloodshed is imminent. They should sort it out between them. Remember the Bengal is in new surroundings and probably not feeling too confident. All that will change as he becomes accustomed to the new home ...

[sunama]

Bengal has arrived and I'm having a few problems.

First off, the Egyptian Mau is supremely athletic in comparison. He is stronger, faster and more intelligent, has much faster reflexes, but is around the same size as his younger friend. And this is when the Egyptian Mau is not at full strength (he injured his left, rear foot 2 days ago and he is limping).

The problem is that he keeps harrassing the new arrival. The Egyptian Mau has endless energy, while the Bengal gets a little tired. Also, last night and this morning they have already had their first few scraps. Lots of hissing and growling. The Egyptian Mau was the dominant cat of its litter and it is showing up now. He simply harrasses other cats into submission.

As a comparison, the Egyptian Mau is smaller, but leaner and heavier (at the same height). I cannot emphasize enough, just how much faster he is than the Bengal.

Ive not cut the claws of the Bengal, as I feel he needs any advantage he can get over the Mau.

Here's a pic of the new arrival:

[sunama]

Stunning cats - how come the Bengal breeder is letting him come to you at 10 weeks old though? Or have I misread your post?

Pictures were taken at 8 weeks at the end of March. Bengal comes home at 13 weeks, first week of May.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Stunning cats - how come the Bengal breeder is letting him come to you at 10 weeks old though? Or have I misread your post?

[Bazsmum]

  Gorgeous! 

[sunama]

Moira, can we possibly some pics of your Egyptian Mau please.
Thanks.

[Zenith (Liz)]

Thanks for that, will check it out later

And ohhhh so pretty!  What a stunner he'll be, he's a poser already!

[sunama]

The cat tree came from ebay. Including postage, I think I paid around £80. It was good value for money. Ive since been to pets at home and seen cat trees half as elaborate, being priced at around £100. The build quality is good - I have no complaints, however, the real test will come when I have 2 cats, at adult weights, though this wont be for another year or so.

I'm expecting to bring home the Bengal in 2 weeks time and I am very excited. Bringing in the cats is almost like having a baby - an exciting time, thats for sure.

Here is a picture of the Bengal, taken at 8 weeks old:





...and this is what Reflex is looking like, these days. Excuse the blur, the battery was running low, so the flash cut out:

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Definately that was an attention seeking bite 

What do you mean on the phone for an hour and not paying attention to the most beautiful cat in the world 

[Zenith (Liz)]

Reflex is lovely looking

Can i ask where you got your cat tree from, and how much it cost?  I'll be needing one soon :D

[sunama]

If NM goes down well, PAH sell it in bulk (packs of 48 pouches exclusive to PAH) a bit cheaper.  They used to be about £16 for 48 pouches, but every few months they were on offer for about £13.  Unfortunately, the £16 standard price has recently gone up to about £18 so I don't know what the offer price will be (if they still put it on offer). 

Just an update:
I went to Pets At Home in Ruislip.
They sold the Natures Menu Kitten pouches, in 12 packs, only. They were priced at £4.69, which was reasonable.
However, they did sell Natures Menu pouches, for adults, in 48 packs. These were priced at £18.49.

With regards to Reflex's diet: I have now settled on a 50/50 mix of Whiskas Kitten and Natures Menu, topped up with some Orijen dry food. He seems to find this acceptable with no problems. Over the last 3 days I have noted that he is eating rather a lot. I must buy some kitchen scales to start monitoring his weight. Where in the first 10 days, he seemed to be uninterested in food and kept walking away from food which was in his bowl, he now cleans his bowl and is ready for 2nd helpings, which I do give him, most of the time, as I need him to be nice and strong for when the Bengal arrives (who I know will grow up to be pretty large).

With regards to his scratching: I dont think this will ever stop, but I have now taken to cutting his claws every week, as they get sharp, very quickly.

With regards to his biting: He is still biting, however, most of the time, it isnt a hard/deep bite. Yesterday however, when I was speaking on the phone for an hour, there was an incident, where he bit quite hard. Its quite possible that he wanted attention and was angry at the fact that my attention was focused on my phone conversation.

I have also noticed that he has now developed a fascination for water and the kitchen sink. He can quite happily watch water and play with it, while it drops out of the tap for hours. He isnt quite confident though, to dip his entire body into water.

[sunama]

Thanks for the advice Moira.

I was actually thinking about a cat wheel last night, thinking of ways to build one, as it seems difficult to buy one on the open market. At this point I'm thinking of using a bicycle wheel, as the basis.

I fully expect the Bengal to be athletic, though obviously he wont be quite as quick as Reflex, due to the Egyptian Mau's breed characteristics. The Bengal's father was the most muscular cat I've ever seen, so it wouldnt surprise me if his son has the potential to go the same way.

I'm hoping that once I get the Bengal, he and Reflex will be able to play together and work off the excess energy in that way, rather than me having to (for hours) play games with the Mau. The crazy thing is that I was told that kittens sleep for 16hrs/day, Reflex doesnt. He hardly sleeps and is always up for action. Even as I type, he is looking for attention, attempting to jump all over me, using his sharp claws.

[moiramassey]

He sounds exactly like Flynn.

Flynn went through a biting (deliberate) and scratching (unintentional) stage but he has grown out of it. Still the occasional nip but not hard, a love nip really. He no longer scratches and has stopped trying to climb us (thank goodness, that was painful). Now that he is 6 months and neutered he is becoming more affectionate. He is beginnig to come when called and wants to be stroked and sits on laps (but likes to sit on a towel or blanket rather than just clothes).

Him and Mitzi play chase (including climbing) and play fight for hours each day. Flynn could always win. He is bigger. He is faster. He climbs better. He leaps higher and further. He does not always win because the game isn't about winning, its about playing. He loves the physical activity. In fact, he's a softie with Mitzi and she usually gets her own way.

I don't think Reflex is aggressive, just super-active as an Egyptian Mau should be. And remember, those play bites and inadvertent scratches would not hurt another cat.

Do not restrict his activity. That may upset him. The more practice he gets, the more in control of himself he will become.

If your Bengal proves equally athletic (which is possible) you may have to consider a cat wheel!!!!!

[sunama]

The plan will be to feed the Bengal Whiskas kitten for the first week and then to work upto a 50/50 mix of Whiskas and Natures Menu.

On a separate note, I have noticed the Egyptian Mau, Reflex, becoming increasingly physical. He is taking on traits that I would expect more of a wild, untamed animal. Keep in mind that he is only 3 months old and has no qualms about biting and scratching.

He has boundless energy.

His reflexes are prodigious. In the evenings, its like somebody turns a switch, which gives him an extra boost. During this time, he moves so fast, that a camcorder which I am using to record his movements, cannot catch his movements, where if I advance the video footage, frame by frame, a single frame was not fast enough to graduate the movement.

I knew that I was getting the fastest domestic cat in the world, however, I was unaware that I was getting a cat that was this quick.

I have been exercising him on the cat tree (going up and down it to improve his climbing/jumping ability, as well his cardiovascular fitness) and I am now thinking that perhaps this might be a bad idea as I can actually see his fitness and physical ability improving by the day.

Consider also that I have a Bengal arriving in 3 weeks, who shall be 3 months old. I am actually worried that Reflex will rip him to shreds.

[moiramassey]

What my four cats eat is determined by what my Siamese/Bengal mix can eat as she has the most sensitive digestive system. After a nightmare of continuous diarrhoea when she was a kitten (I almost lost her), it is Hills Science Diet dried (Tuna) and pouches (Ocean Fish) all round. I am sure she could eat other food but I am not taking any risks - it was too stressful.

My Egyptian Mau would (and will, given the chance) eat anything and I think it would take a lot to disrupt his digestion. One of the advantages of being descended from Cairo street cats!

[Desley (booktigger)]

I would mix the two wet foods rather than wet and dry - mixing dry does affect things like the crunchiness and its ability to be left for a while

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

You could also try mixing some of the NM with the whiskas - starting off with mostly whiskas and gradually increasing the amount of NM until you are feeding NM exclusively.

[sunama]

Right.

Yesterday I received some Natures Menu Kitten.
Today I received Orijen dry food.

The Egyptian Mau hasnt really taken to Natures Menu...he prefers Whiskas Kitten. I'm persevering with Natures Menu though.
I gave him Orijen today and he liked it. Keep in mind though, that I am basing this on a single feed as Orijen only arrived today.

It seems the best way to get to him to eat Natures Menu is to mix it with some Orijen - a combination that he seems to like.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Please dont change the diet of your bengal immediately upon getting him home, they do suffer with more sensitive tums and are prone to runs at time of stress anyway (which a new home can bring on).  I would recommend feeding whatever your breeder is feeding for a least the first few weeks and make any changes gradually, this way you can hopefully avoid full blow bengal tummy which is not nice 

I definitely agree with that.  Changing food needs to be done gradually, and a new home can be a stressful time so it's always best to feed a new kitten on what he's used to until settled in and everything in the toilet department seems normal!    That probably applies to Bengals more than most due to their sensitive tums.  Then you can think about gradually changing over to what you'd like to feed.

[sunama]

I would recommend feeding whatever your breeder is feeding for a least the first few weeks ...

That would be Whiskas kitten then.

[Linda (Bengalbabe)]

Please dont change the diet of your bengal immediately upon getting him home, they do suffer with more sensitive tums and are prone to runs at time of stress anyway (which a new home can bring on).  I would recommend feeding whatever your breeder is feeding for a least the first few weeks and make any changes gradually, this way you can hopefully avoid full blow bengal tummy which is not nice