A question for breeders or anyone else

[Reynard]

but somewhere along the line, there has to have been a breeder who released kittens to someone who has used them to breed from. Siamese and other breeds do not simply spring from the air. So logically, someone who breeds them as a registered breeder has sold kittens to someone who subsequently has used those kittens as breeding stock. What is more, someone is either providing stud services for them or they have sold them a pigeon pair so that they can breed. I agree most breeders are responsible, and are also subject to the peer pressure of their fellow-breeders, but someone somewhere has not done the right thing, and so BYBs have managed to obtain entire cats that they are then using to produce these non-pedigreed breed cats from.

Jo, certainly with respect to the GCCF, kittens not intended for breeding will be registered on the Non-Active register. Unfortunately, this does not prevent people breeding from cats who are registered as non-active, and this is where you get the problem with backstreet breeders. Because they don't give a monkey's about the paperwork, they'll flaunt the rules just to make money.

Cats on the Non-Active register aren't always show quality and also may have other issues e.g. deafness or carriers of PKD, the latter an issue with Persians, Exotics and also Burmese. If a byb breeds from these cats, then they are not only giving the breed a bad name by turning out poor examples of the breed (they certainly won't have heard of the Breed Advisory Comittee) they are also creating generations of cats with potentially life-threatening health issues.

A scrupulous, responsible and reliable breeder has a good "nose" regarding potential homes for their kittens and won't release a kitten if they're not happy. Also, if they accept outside queens to stud, all the paperwork must be present and accounted for - if the queen is not on the active register (whatever body she is registered with), they won't let her mate with their boy.

As far as I am aware of, there are no limits imposed on the number of breeders of a given breed. However, one breeder I know (breeds Burmese and Asian) has mentioned on a number of occasions that finding homes for kittens is not particularly easy at this moment in time.

BTW Beanie, TICA is from the USA, based in Texas while FIFe is French.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

All it needs is for someone to buy a male and female, intend to get them neutered but not do it in time, then advertise the resulting kittens in a newspaper or online.  If the original cats were on the non active register (as they would be if bought from a reputable breeder, but not all breeders are reputable), that wouldnt' necessarily put a byb off as many don't offer documentation anyway.

[Desley (booktigger)]

If you actually ring round though BC, it is very hard to find vets who will neuter early in this country, it is one of the things we are behind America on. The rescue up the road from me who do neuter that early have to travel to get them done at 8 weeks, i dont know about the other rescue, I only know they do cos I know someone who has adopted from them. My vet will do them at 4 months old in line with CP's guideline, the rescue's vet is 5months, but the rescue lady always tells people 6 months old.

[blackcat]

but somewhere along the line, there has to have been a breeder who released kittens to someone who has used them to breed from. Siamese and other breeds do not simply spring from the air. So logically, someone who breeds them as a registered breeder has sold kittens to someone who subsequently has used those kittens as breeding stock. What is more, someone is either providing stud services for them or they have sold them a pigeon pair so that they can breed. I agree most breeders are responsible, and are also subject to the peer pressure of their fellow-breeders, but someone somewhere has not done the right thing, and so BYBs have managed to obtain entire cats that they are then using to produce these non-pedigreed breed cats from.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

It's inevitable that those breeds which are most popular end up in rescues.  The registered cats are just the tip of the iceberg as backyard breeders get in on the act.  There's no point in byb's breeding breeds that Joe Public has never heard of and for which there is not a big demand, so they focus on the BSH, Persian, Siamese, Bengal....  Which means that a disproportionate number of these cats sold go to owners who have not done much research and do not have a reputable breeder to provide guidance and education.  A good breeder will ask a potential owner as many questions as the owner will ask them.  But sadly, there are a lot of greedy people who would rather buy from a byb and save £100 on the purchase price than go to a reputable breeder and pay more, but get a better socialised kitten and a lot of help and advice.  Here, the general public are as much to blame as the breeders.

[Desley (booktigger)]

The other problem with Bengals is that too many people see a tabby cat and assume it is a Bengal - we took in two 'Bengal crosses' (a bit of a pet hate of mine!), and as you can see below, apart from their size (these two are a year old), and a slight sheen on them, they dont look anything like, yet their owner travelled miles and paid lots of money for them - his first comment was the tabby we have in looked more like a Bengal than his two. I do think there should be a restriction on certain breeds due to the amount needing homes cos people can't cope - or maybe just better education on the breeders part?

[Beanie]

Hi Milly's Mum,

How are you doing?

You are absolutely right and Ela made the point on another thread about Bengals, Siamese and Persians coming into care. You have mentioned BSH as well.

You may already know but 2006 saw the following GCCF registered births:

BSH - 6,353
Siamese - 3,768
Bengal - 2,883
Persian L/H - 2,693

They were the top 4 breeds in the UK in that year.

Whilst not at the front end of cat care like Ela, my experience of some of our rescues is the same as hers.

• The Bengals are intelligent cats but can be destructive particularly if kept indoors in non stimulating surroundings. I have no great knowledge of the breed but believe that they prefer the great outdoors but seem to be a target for thieves because of their beautiful markings
• The Siamese are returned and a common reason is that they are too vocal. What do people expect? A flaming remote control
• It comes as a shock to some who find that the long haired persians need proper grooming and the number that have come into care and had this neglected is simply shocking.

[Millys Mum]

I am looking at whether there are too many breeders either by total or by cat breed..

There are an awful lot of excess siamese, bengals, persians and BSHs kicking about. These breeds have soared in popularity.
Happens with dogs too, when i was younger GSDs were very popular, now its SBTs.
One rescue in london does specific neutering campaigns just for staffies because they have become such a problem. (Not the dogs but the people wanting rid!)

[Beanie]

Hi CC,

I didn't actually say that it was down to the GCCF. It would be for each governing body.

I fully accept the problem with unlicensed breeders which has taxed better minds than mine. I wish I had an answer - well, at least one which many could subscribe to. I'll leave my personal thoughts to myself on that for now!!

I am looking at whether there are too many breeders either by total or by cat breed. Some breeders may believe that themselves for all I know. I would be interested in their thoughts hence the title of my post.

[ccmacey]

Yes second one is fair.

Surely if there were any regulations put on licenced breeders they would not be down to the GCCF? And who would regulate the non pedigree breeders?

[Beanie]

Susanne,

Thanks for that very detailed reply. Much appreciated. Thanks also to Blackcat.

Fe and TICA are international organisations that have a UK branch, so to speak.

Do you know from which countries they are based?

I am trying to learn a bit about how these organisations operate and the standards they set. However,
there are two things that bother me and underpins my question:

1. If there are no limits apart from self regulation or market forces, isn't it part of the overall problem of so many cats being born in the UK? In saying that, I fully appreciate that it is not a problem confined to breeders.

2. If the main purpose of a breeder is to maintain the breed and I accept that many breeders genuinely believe that, why do we have new breeds being established? It always appears to be in the USA. I believe there are rules within GCCF to stop there entry into shows which seems sound and sensible policy, but why do some breeders feel the need to breed new lines? I cannot reconcile how this fits with protecting a breeding line. It seems to me that, in those cases, it is more about the breeder, their need for recognition and their ego. Fair?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Witty has just shown with TICA for the first time and thats where gorgeous Pearl won Best in Show.

Now who runs the National........isnt it the National Cat Club or something?

Yes that's right.  The national cat club is a cat club affiliated to the GCCF.  So it's a GCCF show, but it's not held by the GCCF itself (like the Supreme) but by the National cat club under GCCF rules.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Witty has just shown with TICA for the first time and thats where gorgeous Pearl won Best in Show.

Now who runs the National........isnt it the National Cat Club or something?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I'm not aware that any organisation limits the number of breeders.  The GCCF registers pedigree cats and provides guidelines to breeders as to how they operate (things like not rehoming kittens until 13 weeks old, fully vaccinated etc) and can suspend breeders for bad practice (eg selling unhealthy kittens), but doesn't impose any limits on the number of breeders.  I forget where I read it (so dont' know whether it was a general guideline or what)  but I'm sure I read somewhere that breeders should take note of market forces and if they struggle to sell their kittens (eg if a lot of breeders of that breed in the same area) then they should stop breeding or breed a different breed.  I have a feeling it wasn't on the GCCF website though.  Maybe on a cat club website.  I think the only regulation of breeders/breeds is that there are certain breeds they will not register, eg Scottish Fold, Munchkin and although Bengals are registered, they have said they will not register any further breeds created by using wild cats.

The GCCF is the only UK organisation that exists, but FIFe and TICA are international organisations that have a UK branch, so to speak.  They are both relative newcomers in this country and, as such, the number of cats registered with either of them is substantially smaller than numbers registered with the GCCF.  FIFe is the Fédération Internationale Féline, and the UK branch is Felis Britannica.  The latter was only established a few years ago (2003).  TICA is The International Cat Association which now organises shows in the UK (since 2004).  I don't know how they differ in terms of registering cats or in providing legislation and guidance for breeders, but their shows are operated differently.

I'm not entirely sure about what actual regulations the GCCF have.  I know that the Somali cat club introduced PK deficiency testing as compulsory (meaning that members of the somali cat club abided to undergo testing on all cats used for breeding) and have been recenly been successful in getting the GCCF to accept their breeding and registration policy, which I think means that all somalis registered with the GCCF must have a certificate showing them to be PK deficiencey negative.  So I'd guess there are other similar guidelines for other breeds.

Various cat clubs are affiliated to the GCCF, and cat shows run under GCCF rules are held by the clubs themselves and not the GCCF.  The only show actually held by the GCCF is the Supreme.  TICA and FiFE also hold cat shows, but there are fewer than there are GCCF shows.

Witty's your person to ask about this as she knows more about the world of showing and knows breeders.  I think Witty shows mainly GCCF, but you could also try contacting Lottie as she shows with TICA or FIFe (I forget which) and Linda (Bengalbabe) who shows with TICA or FIFe also.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Let me start by saying that I know absolutely nothing about competitions, rosette categories, etc. etc.

I am curious to know whether any other governing body have or impose limits on the number of breeders permitted either

• in total,
• by category of breed or
• in a geographical area

I realise that they impose rules and regulations but wonder if this is part of it.

I also don't know of the differences between GCCF, Felis Britannica, TICA, etc, so would appreciate any guidance as to where they vary.

I have to say that I find the GCCF more open as  an organisation and they are usually willing to provide information whilst my dealings with Felis Britannica have been nothing short of a disaster. My initial impressions of that organisation is that they make the freemasons look transparent.
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I think the answer is no and I am sure Witty will correct me if I wrong but thought that GCCF/ TICA etc were more to do with showing rather than regulating breeders etc. I thought the only "regulation" they did was in what breeds they allowed at their shows.

I know the world of showing is so terribly complicated to those outside.

I am sure I have heard of Felis Brittanica but dont know why.......ummm sounds like a cat encyclopedia 

[blackcat]

Unless things have changed since my day the only restriction is that you can not choose a stud name similar to one that has been used before. Many breed organisations also have a voluntary code for members regarding standards of care, age of kittens, number of litters per year, breeding animals with congenital flaws (although this becomes self-regulating to an extent as breeders know what each other are producing and do not recommend those with congenital flaws or buy from them). And to some extent the market is regulated simply because one can not get sufficient "£££s" for kittens to cover stud fees if there is an oversupply.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Interesting question Pete, I wish there would be a limit, although I don't have issues with breeders, as I wouldnt want certain breeds to die out, I do think they need to have stricter rules.

[Beanie]

Let me start by saying that I know absolutely nothing about competitions, rosette categories, etc. etc.

I am curious to know whether any other governing body have or impose limits on the number of breeders permitted either

• in total,
• by category of breed or
• in a geographical area

I realise that they impose rules and regulations but wonder if this is part of it.

I also don't know of the differences between GCCF, Felis Britannica, TICA, etc, so would appreciate any guidance as to where they vary.

I have to say that I find the GCCF more open as  an organisation and they are usually willing to provide information whilst my dealings with Felis Britannica have been nothing short of a disaster. My initial impressions of that organisation is that they make the freemasons look transparent.
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