Vaccinating older cats against FELV

[Ela]

 

I m making this as clear as I can[

.

 Very, as long as everyone knows your thoughts are not the thoughts of  Cats Protection.

Of course we vaccinate against FELV (not all branches do).

It used to be left up to the individual branch to decide, we have done so for many years, however, last year all branches were asked to comply.

I have to say I don’t take everything for granted, but on this occasion I have seen the results of cats being vaccinated. That is a huge reduction in the number of cats I hear about with FeLV. Long may it continue.

[catcuddles]

Ela

Perhaps I did not make myself clear from the beginning. In here I do not represent my branch or CP, I represent only myself and my opinions.
Of course we vaccinate against FELV (not all branches do). However, being very much one to question things we take for granted and having done some (still ongoing) research, I thought perhaps I could enrich it by asking for other members' viewpoint.

Therefore, I would really appreciate it if what I believe is not identified as what CP or my CP branch believes. In the same way, I have been a fosterer for Celia Hammond; does this mean that my opinions in here would be the ones of CHAT? I hope I m making this as clear as I can. 

[Ela]

As my reason is FeLV related. I will tell you on here. I just wondered as you are CP why you  are not too happy with the CP guidelines.  Perhaps you should be bringing up your thoughts with the CP vet, (perhaps you already have) for them to clarify to you once and for all CP's position on this and why they ask that all cats are fully vacinated whatever the age. We  have to conform to CP standards sometimes even if we don't necessarily agree with them, (although on this I personally do  agree with them), if we want to continue to help rescue and give the best possible chance to as many cats as possible with the help of CP finances and support. I also know that your Branch does inject some if not all cats for FeLV.

[catcuddles]

Which CP branch are you with please?

Please can you say?

Hi, sure, is this helping the conversation by saying which branch I m volunteering for?
It is Bexley Dartford & Darenth Valley by the way. It would help if you could PM me your answer to why this is important, so we can leave this thread for FELV posts only.
Thanks

[Ela]

Which CP branch are you with please?

Please can you say?

[catcuddles]

If we now take into account the sarcomas, carcinomas etc that statistically appear more to repeatedly FELV vaccinated cats,

I understand that  most statistics say that 1 to 4 vaccine injections out of 10000 lead the above. Others suggest that it is 1 out of 1000. That of course is for all injections not just FeLV injections. In my opinion the benefits of a vaccination outweigh the  risks.  As previously posted I think this is a subject that we need to agree to disagree and all act as we feel is in our little ones interest.

Well, certainly a point well made is a point well made either way, so disagreeing is OK so long as it comes with more facts for all.

As for the stats, there are distinct differences between tri-vaccines and FELV and rabies vaccines as per US researchers who have so far produced more research on the subject. It is FELV vaccination recommendations that are gradually changing in several US states and although I do not advocate that one has to believe them more than they do European researchers, cats have no country and any info relating to their welfare should in my opinion be considered without prejudice. I am talking about research that is so irrefutable it has made it to vet school textbooks. I will get the precise source and post it when I next visit my vets, that is only one in many out there.

[Ela]

Which CP branch are you with please?

[catcuddles]

I totally agree with you all who say that not all vets are sharks; thankfully!

I have been doing some research for my CP branch on vets, costs, practices and treatment of our (rescue) cats in routine and emergency situations. I am relieved to report that after speaking to "a few" vets with no result in getting what most other CP branches already have, I almost accidentally came across a great compassionate interactive vet, one of those who take each and every cat in their hands, interact with it, rub its belly, let it smell his instruments before poking them etc, before they do everything they need to at the time. He is not trigger-happy when it comes to drugs (unlike many I have visited in the past) and regularly undercharges or over-delivers (free tartar clear-ups, free vaccinations in large litters etc ,great discounts etc).
The fact of the matter is however that he just like any other vet in the UK cannot officially veer away from the RCVM rules and guidelines on vaccination and these are set. Of course vets have an opinion about it but they still have to stick to "yearly vaccinations for all cats" as per their code of practice in their standard recommendations.

I m glad -and relieved- that vets like Sean and Alan actually exist to temper the negative impression I have had far too many times from others who run a "practice" as a business and not a chatiry, as some have responded to us requesting better pricing and NVS drugs for the hundreds of treated cats every year. Anyway, although besides the point of the thread, I did not want to put across that I believe ALL vets are calculated business people because that is not true.

[Ela]

If we now take into account the sarcomas, carcinomas etc that statistically appear more to repeatedly FELV vaccinated cats,

I understand that  most statistics say that 1 to 4 vaccine injections out of 10000 lead the above. Others suggest that it is 1 out of 1000. That of course is for all injections not just FeLV injections. In my opinion the benefits of a vaccination outweigh the  risks.  As previously posted I think this is a subject that we need to agree to disagree and all act as we feel is in our little ones interest.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

He commented that bad idea to give drugs when not absolutely necessary. I have lost count of the number of times I have been surprised at low level of his charges or had a free consult. I'm pretty sure Dawn will feel same way about her vet Sean and others too.  It's not very fair to paint "most" vets as so uncaring. I would have loved to be a vet if I had the brains and emotional stomach for the work.

I agree, my vets do not administer anything that isn't needed and sometimes Sean will tell me if I wanted certain treatments doing, he would refuse me to have them done based on the financial costs.  Not all vets are sharks, when I have any of mine spayed or neutered, I get a discount and I don't get charged for the antibiotic and painkilling jabs they have, I also get free consults, and any medication I have is at a reduced costs.

With reference to FIV/FeLV, my other vet always told me there was no point in having all mine tested for it unnecessarily as they were going out at the time, so at any point could have been in contact with it.  If he was a money grabber, he would have encouraged me into getting them done.

[Rosella moggy]

Vets and the industry are of course going to support vaccination just like most would not think twice before administering drugs to a pet.

Can I just comment that this is a bit harsh and generalised. The last time I went to my vet, I mentioned I had stopped Tom's metacam (used to ease discomfort in arthritic back legs) which is what he had hinted I try at previous visit. He commented that bad idea to give drugs when not absolutely necessary. I have lost count of the number of times I have been surprised at low level of his charges or had a free consult. I'm pretty sure Dawn will feel same way about her vet Sean and others too.  It's not very fair to paint "most" vets as so uncaring. I would have loved to be a vet if I had the brains and emotional stomach for the work.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I don't like using the FeLV vaccines on kittens as I've heard so many bad reports.  I have had some of the older ones vaccinated against it and have to say I didn't have any problems.  I think the main problems with the jab stems from having them done all in one go.  I always suggest to people they get the normal jabs done first and then the FeLV one's at a later date if they do want them doing.    Also on the subject, when talking to one of my vets about the FeLV jab, he did say really all cats should be tested yearly for this before vaccinating so can't understand why this isn't mentioned.

I am looking for facts and experiences of other rescues which I hope is legitimate as this is what a forum is all about.

Right, I m off to bed, have been up at dawn to check on a heavily pregnant kitty among my fosters, I m sure there will be more interesting -albeit less heated- opinions to read through tomorrow...

This comment had me baffled as well 

[Christine (Blip)]

I am looking for facts and experiences of other rescues which I hope is legitimate as this is what a forum is all about.

Right, I m off to bed, have been up at dawn to check on a heavily pregnant kitty among my fosters, I m sure there will be more interesting -albeit less heated- opinions to read through tomorrow...

I have checked through this thread, Catcuddles, and cant see anything irrelevant or over-heated in members responses?  Perhaps people of goodwill might be a little hurt by your response?

Anyway, I hope you get the information you need.

[catcuddles]

Catcuddles
I am wondering why you asked for our opinions? You seem very anti Felv vaccination perhaps one of your cats suffered a bad  experience? if this is the case it may help to talk about it, we are all here to offer support.
Its always difficult to decide what is best to do for our cats and we all need to carefully assess each individual cat based on our knowledge of them and in consultation with our vet. Also please dont take everything you read on the internet as gospel without checking information gained with your vet
If everyone stopped vaccinating then the feline world would suffer a terrible blow, look at what happened with humans when TB vaccine stopped because the disease was  supposedly extinct.
At the beginning of your post you suggested rescues could save money by dropping this vaccine; I am a rescue and the deal I have with my vet means I pay the same amount per vaccine regardless of whether Felv is included or not. The greatest cost involved in vaccination is the examination fee, vaccine is very cheap.

I have a natural interest in what is best for the welfare of my fosters, and do research a lot more than your average person before I form an opinion. Of course I do not preach non-vaccination, perhaps you have misread my posts. My interest in the opinion of the panel is just that as I have just posted  a few minutes ago. I tried to put the arguments forward as I had them and do not believe I attacked anyone with my views.

As for managing vet costs more effectively, there is something to be said on paying annually GBP3 extra for each of 200 cats over 6years old to vaccinate against FELV IF this is -arguably- not adding to their FELV immunity.  I am sure you do not want us to detract from the discussion by comparing vet costs and indeed it is only the principle cost saving that I mentioned.

At the moment, the evidence I have summarised in my posts is against vaccinating older cats given certain conditions are met (prior vaccinations took place, cats are healthy, in a reasonably safe environment i.e. not routinely interacting with aggressive feral colony cats etc.). I am looking for facts and experiences of other rescues which I hope is legitimate as this is what a forum is all about.

Right, I m off to bed, have been up at dawn to check on a heavily pregnant kitty among my fosters, I m sure there will be more interesting -albeit less heated- opinions to read through tomorrow...

[Rosella moggy]

Hi Catcuddles

Can't pretend I've researched this but both my last and current vet were of the same opinion as Gill's

My vet does not vaccinate senior cats against leukaemia, he would if someone asked specifically but would advise against it because of the immunity issue discussed below.

Perhaps we are back to the question of what is considered to be a "senior" cat and there I'm afraid I part company with vets a little in that I eventually decided our Tom had become a senior only 2 years ago when Gandolf RIP was pts.

Tom is now 18 but Gandolf was a renowned fighter and was fully vaccinated until he died aged 18 or 19 so perhaps it was a good idea that I tried to protect Tom as long as I did.  All my cats are also have 24/7 access to outdoors like Gill's.

Hope this helps to give a broad view as perhaps the cats circumstances can dictate the best course of action.

[Teresa Pawcats]

Catcuddles
I am wondering why you asked for our opinions? You seem very anti Felv vaccination perhaps one of your cats suffered a bad  experience? if this is the case it may help to talk about it, we are all here to offer support.
Its always difficult to decide what is best to do for our cats and we all need to carefully assess each individual cat based on our knowledge of them and in consultation with our vet. Also please dont take everything you read on the internet as gospel without checking information gained with your vet
If everyone stopped vaccinating then the feline world would suffer a terrible blow, look at what happened with humans when TB vaccine stopped because the disease was  supposedly extinct.
At the beginning of your post you suggested rescues could save money by dropping this vaccine; I am a rescue and the deal I have with my vet means I pay the same amount per vaccine regardless of whether Felv is included or not. The greatest cost involved in vaccination is the examination fee, vaccine is very cheap.

[catcuddles]

In fact what I have quoted comes from one of the Feline Medicine volumes I borrowed from my vet to read for reference.
So indeed, there is no point of agreeing, also no point in not putting both cases across. Vets and the industry are of course going to support vaccination just like most would not think twice before administering drugs to a pet. There is a counter-argument when it comes to what vets say and this comes straight out of their own veterinary reference library. I would not take anything a vet would tell me at face value and would always want to research on the internet so that I am convinced I have as much info I need to make the decision. That would of course imply that I do not have blind faith on any one specialist when I have the benefit of so much research and specialist opinions on the internet and from other sources.

This was the reason I put this to you, to get a general feel or perhaps more specific info on how rescues treat this issue rather than how vets do.

I hope this clarifies.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

My vet does not vacinate senior cats against leukeamia, he would if someone asked specifically but would advise against it because of the immunity issue discussed below.

He would prefer younger cats to be vacinated with it but after Misa was so ill I refused to allow it again.

I think there is so much over vacinating in this country and studies in the states have shown that annual vaccines are not needed but of course without them catterys are not open to those cats.

I would far prefer an  every other year vaccination rather than every year but vets in this country will not do this.

I just do not think constantly bombarding cats with medication all the time is good for them

[Ela]

If we now take into account the sarcomas, carcinomas etc that statistically appear more to repeatedly FELV vaccinated cats, it would appear that it is best for their overall health that oldies do not get vaccinated against FELV.

Although I appreciate that injections can cause problems in a very small number of cases, I personally have thankfully never come across a single case in spite of  having thousands of cats injected. case. I will also continue to take the advice of vets who have a wealth of experience in this type of thing. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

[catcuddles]

I think when you have actually had to deal with things like Leukemia you realise how much the benefit outweighs the risk.

I would agree 100%.  I personally have not heard of nearly so many cases of Leukaemia since the injection became available and more and more people or rather cats are taking advantage of it.

To complete the statistic & avoid misunderstandings: cats with history of several earlier vaccinations against FELV and of a certain age have immunity to the virus of 80-85% without having to continue getting vaccinated. That is, they have the same chance of contracting FELV as the cats that is vaccinated against it (vaccine cover rate of 80-85%). This suggests that there are no odds for or against vaccinating after a certain age and under these circumstances. If we now take into account the sarcomas, carcinomas etc that statistically appear more to repeatedly FELV vaccinated cats, it would appear that it is best for their overall health that oldies do not get vaccinated against FELV.

[Liz]

Just to say we are a multi cat household and they are all injected every year for the applicable thing and we have them from 18 years young to 6 months, it does cost around £110.00 per year per cat but this includes our Program injection twice a year for fleas and ticks and our lot are hale and hearty.

The oldies have all been blood tested this year - Sweetie (15 yrs and 10 months), Miss Gracie aged 18 ish and holding also had her remaining teeth out in January and is fine and Tiger aged nearly 11 but he has diabetes.

Vet thinks we are perhaps over zealous with injections but to date we have lost noone to and injectable against disease they all get things above and beyond that!

So the Clan Cats advise that they may not all like the twice yearly visits to the vet as the majority are feral but they are all hale and hearty!

[Teresa Pawcats]

As for guarrantees, no one -even CP vets- can provide these for cats that are religiously FELV vaccinated. To clarify: with vaccines there is absolutely no guarrantee and the cover/success rate is around 80-85% anyway.

Whilst I would agree there are no guarantees, I personally would rather give any cats that are likely to meet with others the best possible chance in life. A success rate of 80% plus is better than 0%.

Have to say I agree with Ela.

However I do understand that the Felv vaccine is something that needs careful consideration by each individual to assertain what is best for their cat.
Certainly the number of positive cases seen in rescue have decreased in recent years.

[Ela]

As for guarrantees, no one -even CP vets- can provide these for cats that are religiously FELV vaccinated. To clarify: with vaccines there is absolutely no guarrantee and the cover/success rate is around 80-85% anyway.

Whilst I would agree there are no guarantees, I personally would rather give any cats that are likely to meet with others the best possible chance in life. A success rate of 80% plus is better than 0%.

However, I appreciate everyone will do what they want to with the information they have.

[Ela]

I think when you have actually had to deal with things like Leukemia you realise how much the benefit outweighs the risk.

I would agree 100%.  I personally have not heard of nearly so many cases of Leukaemia since the injection became available and more and more people or rather cats are taking advantage of it.

[catcuddles]

 
Right, so no consensus on this topic.

I know the line of CP and also realise that vaccinating against FELV is now recommended in certain US states every 3 years rather than annually due to sarcomas & carcinomas related with it. More and more renowned veterinarians (not the "industry" though) are against this vaccination frenzy and some academics also advise against it in older cats (once they have been vaccinated a few times when they were young, they have most probably developed the immunity to it.
I do see the point in vaccinating a cat that you have no history on, but is it making a difference vaccinating a cat that has already had the vaccine at least 3 times in her/his lifetime when younger?

As for guarrantees, no one -even CP vets- can provide these for cats that are religiously FELV vaccinated. To clarify: with vaccines there is absolutely no guarrantee and the cover/success rate is around 80-85% anyway.

So there are merits to both sides and shooting the messenger ("...hearing what they want to believe...") does go both ways.

If anyone else has read up something interesting about it or can recommend a website, please do.

[Teresa Pawcats]

Must admit that I fully vaccinate all the Paws Inn cats regardless of ageand health permitting . Buster had his boosters including Leukemia in time for his 22nd birthday in December. I think when you have actually had to deal with things like Leukemia you realise how much the benefit outweighs the risk.
 

[Ela]

The CP in my area went to some kind of conference years ago on this subject,

The advice given by Cats Protection was :- Adult cats are less susceptible to FeLV than kittens and therefore most FeLV positive cats are under 6 years old.  However, this age related resistance is not guaranteed and cats could still become infected if they were to come into contact with high levels of the virus.   There have been devastating cases of cats not being vaccinated at all, because they were thought to be at low risk of disease (e.g. older cats and/or indoor cats) and then contracting a fatal illness.  Whilst these cases should be kept in perspective, it should be remembered that older cats can still be susceptible to disease (including FeLV), even if the risk is thought to be slim. In view of this Cats Protection do advise injections for any age cat.

I have today confirmed with the CP vet that this is still the case.

Unfortunately sometimes people hear what they want to here and not what was actually said or believe what they hear from others as it is in line which what they like to think or want to think.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Cats who are allowed out and mix with other cats develop a natural immunity to FeLV of around 85%, the FeLV jab is also only around 85% effective. The CP in my area went to some kind of conference years ago on this subject, and the consensus was it wasn't worth vaccinating older cats against it, and I dont have my oldies vaccinated against it. Not sure what the cut off age is to be honest, I Can't remember as it was about 2004 I had that conversation.

[catcuddles]

THanks ; has anyone had it from a reliable resource  (vets, research etc) that there is very little risk for cats over 6 to contract FELV?

[Canterbury_cats (Sharon)]

Having recently had a few cats in our care CP wise that were senior cats (Gus included) we decided not to vac against FELV, as it can make them poorly...

You hardly ever see FELV in older cats anyhow.. My own puss Leo was abit under the weather last year with his jab (he is now 12) I havnt ever had his sister FELV vac as she runs a mile from trouble and now with her heart condition i probably will continue not to do her.. I will probably decide not to vac Leo this year either. I have read that over the years they do get some immunity to it but not sure how true that is.. FELV is a horrid disease and no cat should have to get it.

I would discuss with vets but i think we tend to think cats over 10 we want vac FELV for... unless they are fighers i suppose...

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

My vet will not do cats over 8yrs but would prefer to do cats younger.

However I have refused to allow 6yrs old Misa have it anymore as he was so ill after.

Its very much a subject where everyone has their own ideas.

[catcuddles]

Hi all

I would like the forum's opinion and experience on whether is is wise to vaccinate older cats (over 5-6 years old) against FELV.
From reading up on the disease and how cats build immunity to it, as well as the side effects from it, I tend to think there may be not much point to keep vaccinating cats against FELV after a certain age. In fact, I have read in some websites (against over-vaccinating) that a cat over a year of  age will have developed the antibodies if it is not already contaminated in which way  vaccination would be futile anyway. It sounds like healthy cats above 5-6 years may as well not be put through the extra risk of vaccination and possible sarcomes etc. (Especially for a rescue, the money of the extra vaccine could be put ot good use rescuing more cats....)
What do you think?