slippery elm bark: when/how to give it?

[swampmaxmum]

thanks! Sorry about the long, tired rant last night! Am nursing 2 cats and one male 2 legged furry with a high fever too 

So you give the whole 370g capsule then? In which case, my thinking is to try to get a capsule - either that one or a small gelcaps if they are smaller (??) down him when I can with a teaspoon of yoghurt to wash it down. Or milk. Trouble is, he doesn't like as many treats as he used to. But I could do that 1 hour after breakfast most days at the minute.

[Maddiesmum]

I don't have any suggestions but hope you manage to get some SEB into him if it will help.  It is a nightmare when you have to give multimeds and all at different times isn't it.  I am thinking about you all

[swampmaxmum]

His tum's quite hard and a bit swollen like when he had liver disease and he's not hungry, except usually first thing, although is eating a little off his plate, but mostly off the back of the tablespoon while perched on the radiator, or various other places (3 diff places per small meal is normal now). I've noticed lately that he isn't sleeping much. He seems to sit most of the day resting with his eyes open; he only seems to be fast asleep when I come in or in the eves after his last meal. I wonder if that's a sore tum, or is his deteriorated mental state or maybe a function of being deaf so he's on 'other senses' alert and it worries me.  OH sat with Swampy for 1/2 an hour tonight and finally Swamp curled up and went to sleep. (hope it's not his bp that is very high making him anxious - he can't take Istin either!). He likes and expects attention every time you walk past him (purrs).

Anyhow he hates the taste of SEB. I can't get him to voluntarily lick at even a tiny bit of SEB mixed with yoghurt, let alone a whole capsule (he normally loves natural yoghurt and I don't have any beef paste - do you have a make to look for please - we only have a sainsburys near us? ).Tuna was banned as too rich for his liver; not sure if it was a tiny bit that he'd eat it anyhow unless I could blend it somehow - did you use the human cans of tuna that are mixed with water?. I am terrified of making him more food or spoon phobic now as it's so important that he eats roughly the same amount each day so I can't mix it with food (food = spoon) so what I am doing is mixing some with yoghurt, then just putting it on his tongue -not ideal & can only get a tiny bit in or he gets too stressed. The powder looks a bit thick to syringe, plus he already gets 2 syringes a day (one Visorbin, one lactulose). As his meals are only 3 -4 hours apart, I'm not sure when is ideal to try as I have to get Zentonil down him on a fairly empty tum too (eves).  Sounds like I should try to move the Zentonil to before his lunch perhaps, then give the SEB in a syringe maybe mixed with milk towards the evening. I try to keep the mornings medication free!

[Tiggy's Mum]

That's the one I used for Tiggy, it's also the one recommended on the felinecrf.org site.  On the site it says that SEB containing fillers is just not suitable for making the syrup with as it will not thicken up properly.   I think the other type they sell in H&B has lots more unwanted ingredients in so the capsules are probably about as pure as you're going to get.

It should be given 1 hour either side of any meds though as it can inhibit the absorption...  Do not give Slippery Elm Bark at the same time as any other medications or supplements - it can inhibit the absorption of the medications.  It is best to give it an hour before or after any other medications (especially antibiotics), and ideally on an empty stomach, although it is safe to sprinkle it on food if you wish.

The dosage is one capsule per day, I used to sprinkle it over some tuna with the juice squeezed out and then some hot water added to it.  I also mixed it into a little beef sandwich paste and hot water (with no onions or garlic though).

[swampmaxmum]

It's probably ok - if you've been using it for some time now with no ill effects (?). I will try to ask at the health shop but they can be a bit vague. Maybe you can't get it totally 'pure' as it goes off?? There was another one at H & B that had even more added so I avoided that.

I'm an idiot (ok you know that); I just ordered nosh from vet uk and forgot to check if they did SEB  to me: I paid £6.99, but of course no delivery charges. H & B are usually more than anyone online. The powdered one they had was £4 something for a much larger box, but as I say, it has sugar in it to make it palatable to hoomanz. No good for furries.
Think I will start him on 1/4 teaspoon tomorrow to see if it makes any diffs to his appetite.

[Mark]

It's the same on I have - I didn't notice the bit about added fillers  - I will have to see if I can find a pure one.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I could only get Holland and Barrett SEB (I couldn't get to the health store as it's further away; besides they were not sure if the powder was totally pure either). It's made by Good 'N Natural, has 100 capsules (370mg each) and contains anti-caking agents (magnesium stearate & silicon dioxide). 

How much was it?  I've noticed that vetuk sell it so want to compare prices.  I don't know about the anti-caking agents I'm afraid.

[swampmaxmum]

Well I'm not complaining as he's my best friend ever and has given me 16+ years of wonderful purry times! So it's payback time now.

I could only get Holland and Barrett SEB (I couldn't get to the health store as it's further away; besides they were not sure if the powder was totally pure either). It's made by Good 'N Natural, has 100 capsules (370mg each) and contains anti-caking agents (magnesium stearate & silicon dioxide).  Presume I open the capsule and give him about 1/4 teaspoon mixed in yoghurt?  The only alternative was a big box of powder but that contained sugar - it was for people to make into porridge 
Is this stuff ok and that dosage ok to start with? Is it ok to give it just before his early evening meal, when he also has his Zentonil? (don't want all meals associated with pills or things given to him).

[Maddiesmum]

I hope he improves during the day, they are such a worry aren't they.  I remember my old vet once saying to me that pets should bring you pleasure not stress!!!!

[swampmaxmum]

success with 1.4mls lactulose! But a tough morning to get him to eat. Must get some brand new SEB and try to get him to swallow it in yoghurt.  First morning ever he's not eaten much of his breakfast. He's been silent miaowing a lot too today and seems very nervy. I'm worried about his bp (not just dementia??) but as he can't take Istin without his liver values shooting up, not much I can do.

[Maddiesmum]

No advice re SEB but so far is lactulose is concerned my vet recommended 1.5ml twice a day for Dragan and said to down it if he was ok and up it again if needed. 

[swampmaxmum]

has anyone tried this from www.littlebigcat.com (no idea: found on google)
"Author Anitra Frazier gives the following recipe for Slippery Elm Bark syrup in her book, The New Natural Cat, which applies equally well to our canine companions when adjusted for weight: Into a small saucepan place 1/2 cup cold water and 1 teaspoon powdered slippery elm bark. Whip with a fork. Bring to simmer over low flame, stirring constantly. Simmer 1 or 2 minutes or until slightly thickened. Cool and refrigerate. Keeps 7 or 8 days. Give a teaspoon of syrup (5 cc) for an average-size cat (again, about 10 pounds) 5 minutes before a meal to minimize diarrhea, or to soothe and heal mouth ulcers".
I'd be worried about overheating??

Plus do you know how long the powder keeps for - it's in the cupboard and is now about 6 months old so wondered if it was still ok to use? 

The lactulose dosage is going to have to be stepped up as it's not working as well at 1.2mls as before.  Is it common to have a tolerance develop to it so you need to give increased doses? (not on binders at present as they upset his tum and his phosphorus level in the blood tests was ok).

[swampmaxmum]

Thanks! I'll start with 1ml in a spoon of plain yoghurt to see if it's tolerated. You can give Lactulose any time I think, it's just it works best if Swamp takes it at 11ish pm, then he has a tray visit (delicately put  ) before breakfast if all goes ahem well.  Then at least I can get one meal down him without following him to 5 different potential nosh venues around the flat with the spoon 

[Desley (booktigger)]

Just out of interest, why is Lactulose given at night? I tend to give Molly hers in teh morning, and wondering is I should change?

[Elaine]

Yes you can mix it with water and yes you can mix it with yoghurt.  I used to make a syrup out of it and keep that in the fridge.  I started by giving 2mls twice a day and then reduced it to 1 ml twice a day.  That seemed to do the trick for Winston.

[Maddiesmum]

Copious notes - absolutely right.  Very helpful and much better than wondering when something happened and what meds have been given.

[swampmaxmum]

thanks everyone and thanks for the link, Mark. Hopefully it's ok with lactulose and Zentonil?!  The syringe is a fine 2ml one so how much powder do you think I should start with? Swampy is getting 1.2mls only of lactulose so it's a teeny bit. Is all SEB the same 'concentration' as I don't want to get the dosage all mixed up. The only hassle about giving it with the lactulose is that that is given last thing at night whereas I want to help him feel hungrier during the day. Can you mix it with water or with yoghurt?

yes i keep copious notes much to OH's amazement and derision  but it really does help when there's a lot to think about and things go wrong/right and you want to work out when and why.

[Millys Mum]

If you're syrginging the lactulose into him, I would suggest either getting slippery elm powder or grinding a tablet and mixing it with the lactulose.

Id do it that way, id also invest in a morter & pestle, if its gritty it will block the syringe up

[Mark]

Apparently. it "can" slow absorption of other drugs. http://www.appliedhealth.com/nutri/page8467.php

[Maddiesmum]

No advice about the SEB but when Dragan was on mutliple meds and stuff I made a chart and it was easy to keep track of what he had had and when so I knew not to clash his Metacam and his steroid.  Plus I wrote down when he was sick and when he had a poo so that if I went to the vet I had a complete history!!!!

[LesleyW]

If you're syrginging the lactulose into him, I would suggest either getting slippery elm powder or grinding a tablet and mixing it with the lactulose.

[swampmaxmum]

If food isn't being eaten that well & a bit nervously and anyhow already has some binders in it, what's the best way to get SEB into Swampcat please? He has binders (currently in the morning when he eats best), then he has lunch, mid-afternoon snack, tea and after supper lactulose is syringed into his mouth (eg 11pm) - adds up to 6 small meals a day. He's now going on to liquid vitamins which can't be given with food and so will have those syringed into his mouth, probably in the afternoons.
He also has Zentonil tablets which if memory serves (often doesn't) should be given away from food or on an empty tum. I don't like to give them first thing as it gets the day off to a bad start. So tend to give it sometime in the afternoon too. It's getting complicated......when and how should I try the SEB and how much should I start with, given that he's on so many other things now too?

It was easier before when I gave it to Max for a bit as Max isn't on anything else. Thanks for your help oh wise cat slaves