Cat breeding

[Angiew]

There have been a lot of sensible replies in this thead given the topic in discussion.
We do tend to be a lively forum at times and I'm glad that we feel able to say if we think something is wrong. I hope this does not intimidate a newbie to the site but I think it important that people are allowed to express their feelings.

I also agree with Gill that this thread has run its course unless Sakura would like to tell us her decision.

[MBll]

Was just asking gill as ididnt see any wondering what she was on about ?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Please can we let this thread die peacefully............

[MBll]

flaming !!!! insults!! where are there then ?

[Dawn F]

I hope she does come back, she seemed to care about her cat otherwise she wouldn't have bothered finding out the details

[Sabrina (Auferstehen)]

Hopefully she'll take the advice given to heart whatever her decision may be.

I was thinking about this thread on the way home last night, and I just couldn't bring myself to breed a cat (any sort of cat) not only can I not stand the sound of a cat in heat (they don't understand that 4am isn't a good time to start yowling) I'd be a complete mess through the pregnancy and until the kittens were about 13 weeks old...

Maybe I've read too much on here where kittens pass away and that would break my heart.

[sheryl]

I totally agree Gill

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

bc, with respect this thread with the odd exception has been very polite. She has not been flamed or hammered and has been given very sensible advice.

She knew when she posted (because she had already searched) that it was a subject that was going to get strong responces and in view of the strength of feeling among rescues and others on Purrs, which is dedicated to helping rescues, I think most were very mild mannered responces.

[blackcat]

hey furbaby - that's great that you were able to support and advise her. I hope she doesn't feel too intimidated to keep posting and chatting, and that she and her little furbaby all happy and well.

I too have been chatting to her by PM and it seems that yes, she has been fairly badly affected by the flaming she got and may not be back. She strikes me as a very thoughtful and responsible young woman who was only seeking advice on a matter that she has thought long and hard about. Well one those of you who gave her the advice she sought in a constructive and informative way.

It never ceases to amaze me that people who seek to educate others to their own point of view feel that hammering them with insults is the best way to achieve this. If you want to change a persons view point you do it by listening to what they are saying to you and responding calmly, not by shrieking at them.

[MBll]

Will sakura be posting herself on what decision has been made?

[Rosella moggy]

BC,
I have been chatting with the person through PM. She deeply loves her cat and has actually made her decision

Which is...?

[unseeliechylde]

hey furbaby - that's great that you were able to support and advise her. I hope she doesn't feel too intimidated to keep posting and chatting, and that she and her little furbaby all happy and well.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

I have to say I am disappointed in Purrs right now. Here we have a new forum member who has come to us to seek informed advice about whether or not to breed her cat. Fair enough, we don't support what she proposes to do, but is that grounds for the sort of personal attack that has been expressed in a number of the posts on this thread? I do find it disappointing when we allow our passions to overrule our ability to engage in intelligent discusison of even a sensitive issue such as this. Well done to those of you who have answered Sakura's question in a constructive and intelligent way. I am afraid that the rest of you have let yourselves down badly by allowing your passionate views to overrule your good manners. 

BC,
I have been chatting with the person through PM. She deeply loves her cat and has actually made her decision

[unseeliechylde]

Hi Sakura and  to purrs
I've only just read this thread, which is obviously generating a lot of debate.
I'll be honest, I don't know a thing about breeding cats Without going inot any moral or ethical issues (which have already been debated here) the only advice I can offer is to think very carefully before making a decision. It might be worth getting both cats (your girl and mum's boy) checked over by your vet, and ask about the potential implications for her health if she is bred from, given her status as a carrier of cat flu.
Personally, were I in the same situation, I would suggest that you try fostering pregnant cats first, to get some hands-on experience of pregnant and nursing cats, and very young kittens, before I took to breeding myself. All the advice and info in the world won't replace practical experience. I'm sure your current girl is wonderful, and that she would likely have lovely babies, but given her prior health problems, it might be too much for her. Maybe you could get her neutered, foster a few pregnant cats to get experience, and then decide about whether to become a breeder or not.
I can understand you wanting to have kittens around, or maybe you feel you would like to have kittens with temperaments like your current girl, but bear in mind that "not now, not with this particular cat" doesn't have to mean never. Talk to your mum about what its like to be a breeder, and get some experience through fostering (at least this way you'll get the added support of the CP - you won't get that if you go ahead on your own for the first time), then decide what you want to do in the longer term.
I personally wouldn't breed cats, but thats because I don't feel capable or experienced enough, I would be too worried about the heath and potential medical problems, and because I would rather get rescue cats. However, I think it is good that you are seeking advice before you do anything, and I hope that whatever you decide to do, you will at least try to get some experience, advice and support from CP through fostering pregnant cats before you decide one way or another, though I would suggest that breeding from your current girl might not be the best for her health (remember that even if you give her the best possible care, things can still go wrong, and she's already had quite a difficult start in life, so might no cope as well as other cats).
Good luck, Sakura, whatever you do, and good for you fo volunteering with CP, and for doing your homework before making a decision.

[Den]

So a breeder that has the full setup and knowing is allowed but one as the writter here is seen as bad? Whats the difference? Surely they are all adding to the too many kittens in the world list?

gotta agree with you CC

I can never understand why, if you breed pedigee cats, its suddenly ok !!

Because you do need breeding. If you were to totally outlaw breeding, get every animal neutered so it wasn't possible. In 15-20 years you'd have no pet cats. Rescues will be rehomed, people will have a rescue cat. What happens when all these cats die, if there is no breeding there will be no animals born. So in 20+ years time there wont be any cats, I think this will be a sad world. At the moment we have a huuuuuuuge rescue problem, so the key is to finding a middle ground (unless you don't want cats in the future). A large part of the problem is puppy and kitty mills, people who churn out animal after animal selling them to anyone who will have them. Then you have BYB, people who have a pet and who want a litter or two - they have different reasons sadly though they don't tend to healthcheck their animals, match up the temprements correctly and not know the genetic history, but a LOT of people do it. This is another very large chunk of kittens that are available, just look in newspapers, the internet ad site etc etc etc. Even registered breeders are not guaranteed to be good.
Seeing so many animals with behaviour issues, defects, genetic problems it shows how much a good breeder is important. Of course they can have bad ones, but the chances are much slimmer.

The reason for pedigree is generally because you know their history.

[blackcat]

I have to say I am disappointed in Purrs right now. Here we have a new forum member who has come to us to seek informed advice about whether or not to breed her cat. Fair enough, we don't support what she proposes to do, but is that grounds for the sort of personal attack that has been expressed in a number of the posts on this thread? I do find it disappointing when we allow our passions to overrule our ability to engage in intelligent discusison of even a sensitive issue such as this. Well done to those of you who have answered Sakura's question in a constructive and intelligent way. I am afraid that the rest of you have let yourselves down badly by allowing your passionate views to overrule your good manners. 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

So a breeder that has the full setup and knowing is allowed but one as the writter here is seen as bad? Whats the difference? Surely they are all adding to the too many kittens in the world list?

gotta agree with you CC

I can never understand why, if you breed pedigee cats, its suddenly ok !!

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

  to Purrs, Sakura.

You are quite right that the topic itself is still an important one and not be "gagged", however, I don't believe that's what the members here have done, in expressing their opinions, albeit some more direct and vocal than others...

Sakura, you have done the right thing in asking for the advice and experience of others.   Better that than to breed your cat not knowing the risks.

At the end of the day, like the others, Sakura, I will share their opinions in that breeding is a huge responsibility and whilst you are doing your research, please do read up on the medical implications on your cat, the tom, and the kittens. It is the one part that no one ever really reads as much about, because they see the end result as a cuddly wonderful kitten.  Please do consider carefully, for both yours and your mother's cat (if you can influence her in any way). Please do think about this carefully, its a huge risk considering your cat's medical history, not withstanding the heartache and finally the expense which can be prohibitive.

I hope that at the end of the day you find the answer you are searching for.

[JackSpratt]

Sakura, welcome to Purrs.

I do have to agree that I personally wouldn't breed ANY cats (pedigree or otherwise.This is not a dig at breeders, just my honest opinion.) as I feel there are already so many needing good homes. I possibly wouldn't have worded it quite as harshly as a few of the other replies, though.

I know that all my cats are absolutely wonderful, not to mention lovely looking but the idea of having to find homes for the kittens that I thought were good enough was completely enough to put me off.  (The catbed to cat ratio in our house is two beds per cat - and they still get to sleep on the end of our bed if none of them suit their whims!)

A female cat, contrary to old wives tales, does not feel a maternal pull in the same way as a human as far as I'm aware. They feel the need to mate when they are in season, but certainly not because they're "desperate to experience motherhood." It's just programming, and once they're spayed the need is usually gone. Your cat will not feel she's missed out on anything and you won't have to ensure good homes for however many kittens are born.

[Cheesecat]

I have censored self and wont say what I think 

[Mark]

I have to agree with everyone on the thread, it's a subject close to everyone's hearts and all that do rescue see the daily problems with numbers of unwanted cats, so the suggestion of adding to this is going to cause some uproar.

I hope you decide not to go ahead with it, and go down a fostering route so you canhelp the unwanted kittens that are already alive instead of adding to the problem.

I agree - some of us are just volunteers but others spend nearly every waking hour and all their resources sorting out the aftermath of overbreeding so it's not a subject that will go down well.

[Den]

I only think a small percentage of people have the right to breed. I do think the issue is a lot deeper than just breeding though. It's about changing peoples viewpoints about animals, that they are a priviledge and not a right. Also that not everyone is suited to have a pet, maybe because of their lives, situation etc. A lot of people get refused by rescues because their situation isn't right, so they turn to BYB to get their pet - which is something I REALLY wish would change.

The type in this post is one viewpoint I wish would change, I'd love for people to not have the urge to breed their pet once. I'd love for puppy mills and farms etc to go. I'd also love for people to think A LOT harder before they get a pet. I think if you changed this the rescue problem wouldn't be so much of a problem  So I'd like the excessive demand to cease.
I cant never say I'm anti breeding, because there is that small amount who I think do nothing wrong.

Just because I think a small amount of breeders are ok doesn't mean I'm anti rescue. I work in rescue, my own cat is rescue. All my animals are neutered. I fully support rescue and dislike 90% of breeding. It's just not a B&W situation.

[ccmacey]

So a breeder that has the full setup and knowing is allowed but one as the writter here is seen as bad? Whats the difference? Surely they are all adding to the too many kittens in the world list?

[Schmew]

I have to agree with everyone on the thread, it's a subject close to everyone's hearts and all that do rescue see the daily problems with numbers of unwanted cats, so the suggestion of adding to this is going to cause some uproar.

I hope you decide not to go ahead with it, and go down a fostering route so you canhelp the unwanted kittens that are already alive instead of adding to the problem.

[Den]

I often find people wanting to breed have it made up in their mind and they want people to agree with them. Then they get upset when told it's a bad thing. I'm not saying this is the case, just I have seen it A LOT.

Much of my experience is with dogs, but it still applies to cats. I am pro-breeding. But only in certain circumstances do I think it's acceptable. I believe in GOOD breeding, with people who are passionate about their breeds, who know their lines inside out, who healthcheck and who don't breed for the sake of it. These people go out of their way making sure they find the best homes, they offer life long backup and do take animals back even if it's 12 years later.

I do believe this is a classic example of a wrong breeding and the wrong reasons to breed. I'm trying to find something which explains things better, but I can't find it 
If you are concerned about the saftey of the cat, don't breed. She could very easily die - by breeding from her you are risking her life. That isn't being dramatic, it's the truth.

Also, any reputable breeder will not rehome their babies to friends. A good breeder will make sure they have the best home possible. Just because they are friends, it doesn't mean they are good suitable homes.

[Dawn F]

Sakura

I think that most people here are giving advice because they care but it is such an emotive issue and many people on the board see such terrible things in rescue that I'm sure you understand why feelings run high.  I think the bottom line is nobody can stop you doing this and if your mum is a breeder she obviously knows the form but a few good points have been raised - the stress of pregnancy on a flu carrier might be harmful to her and the kittens health, rehoming - if CP won't rehome in your area do you know why?   Pregnancy in cats isn't always straight forward if a c section is needed it would be very expensive and may result in the loss of mum or kittens.  It is great that you are thinking about this first but I would urge you to reconsider and let your cat have a peaceful life on the sofa instead!

[ccmacey]

So what does the future hold in store for you cat? How old is she?

[Sakura]

Thanks for the genuine advice in this thread. Other posts felt more insulting frankly. If I had made up my mind totally to do this replies, like that would have deprived me of information that I would have seriously needed, for the safety of a cat. Most of you don't agree with breeding, and for good reason, but that shouldn't mean that the information is on the topic is gagged.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I think it is good you are asking, (although slightly mind boggling as someone who helps CP), but I can only re-iterate what everyone else has said, especially if your cat had cat flu as a youngster - would you really want her to pass that onto her kittens, and risk their health, as well as the chance of it recurring with her and her being poorly? I think every rescue on here has had heartbreak with kittens last year (we certainly have, and started the year off with it too), and you sadly sometimes lose the mum's too - which is worse when you have also lost all the kittens. Your cat doesn't need to have a litter, in fact it is kinder for her not to, she then doesn't have to go through the pain of mating, giving birth, looking after kittens (which drains them), and having to give them up, which can be upsetting for females, and if you aren't careful with homes, then her offspring could reproduce, and one unspayed female could be responsible for over 10,000 kittens over 6 years. Plus the fact that every unbred heat puts her at risk of pyometria, which can be fatal, and increases her risk of mammary cancer later in life - and trust me, that isn't a pleasant thing for a cat. Also, your mums cat is at risk of testicular and prostrate cancer if he is indoor only, never mind the other issues of living with an unneutered male!! And if he has outdoor access, there is also FIV, FeLV, abscesses to contend with.

[Reynard]

Sakura, as an active member of the Cat Fancy, I would also second what virtually everyone has said on here, and would like to add a few more thoughts.

Responsible pedigree breeders would not allow their stud cats (or queens for that matter) to mate with a cat of unknown parentage just for the sake of it, especially if it is a carrier of cat flu / calci virus. Usually when a pedigree queen goes to stud, the owner of both cats have to provide certification of current vaccination as well as blood tests to show that neither cat carries any communicable diseases.

If your mum's boy is a pedigree (or even if he isn't), then I personally think that's unethical on her part, not on yours, to offer his services as a stud. Besides, as a carrier of Calci Virus, your queen will be at risk. Best spay your girl and give her the life of luxury she truly deserves. 

Also, as someone who "does her bit" for CP, I'd also suggest that if you would like to have kittens about, why not foster a pregnant mum instead? These cats are confined to indoors anyway by fosterers, so the spiel about the "dodgy area" doesn't ring right to me.

Kudos to you to be asking the questions, but IMHO the answer is: don't do it.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I also do Cat Rescue and I know everyone loves little bundles of fluff but hundreds die daily because there aren't enough homes for them.  To breed her is totally irresponsible and considering your mum was a breeder, she should know better.  For every kitten born, another in a rescue dies somewhere.......have a conscience, have a heart and get her spayed!!

[LesleyW]

I rescue and handrear orphan kittens but these past couple of years have had pregnant mums and young mums with babies.  The first mum came here with her babies at two weeks old.  She had six beautiful babies who all thrived and went to wonderful homes, probably your dream litter for your cat.  However, mum cat, giving all her nutrition to her babies, had a fit and died within minutes in front of my eyes - something I would not wish on anyone.

One of the others had five beautfil little kittens born here, the first ones ever born in the house - but even with the best care from me and their mum (and I consider myself to be quite good with youngsters now, having handreard probably over 100 babies now) not all of these little bundles of fluff made it and the heartbreak is devastating.

There are hundreds of kittens needing homes every year, please don't bring any more into the world unnecessarily.

[ccmacey]

If you were going to do it for the love of cats, then dont.

Getting them spayed and letting them live their own lives is far more loving in my eyes. How old is your cat?

With all of the things you said below, they may seem to be good ideas at the time but at the end of the day if you carry on breeding sooner or later them people that you trust are going to run out and sadly then they will start going to homes where you dont know the person.

I'm sure you have heard the saying "dont judge a book by it's cover"  Well some people can seem nice while in your home to make you think they are nice, but these people soon get board of a free to good home kitten and end up doing exactly the same as you, giving it free to a ????? home.

I'm sure your a genuine person just under educated about cats, stick around and we'll have you up to speed in no time  

[MBll]

You say your mum breeds pedigrees yet shes willing you breed her moggie to  yours....that states clearly to me what kind of breeder she is as NO PROPER breeder would even think about this never mind doing it.


Question was asked 'what is your reason for wanting to have a litte' so far no reply from on this...you finding it hard to come up with an answer?

[Tiggy's Mum]

I have started this thread to get advice and fact from people who have had kitten litters themselves. I would like to know about the implications of the process generally for my cat and myself

You've been given lots of thoughts on the moralities of breeding which I completely agree with. 

You asked for actual experiences of people who have had litters themselves.  We have a member on here who took in a pregnant stray, she gave birth to some healthy kittens and the next day had to have an emergency caesarean as there was a kitten stuck inside her.  Thankfully that kitten survived but sadly she lost one of the apparently healthy kittens at just a few days old.  I also know of two pedigree breeders who have recently started breeding - one of them lost a kitten at a day old and then sadly another at 8 weeks old due to illness.  The other had two stillborn kittens and lost another little one at just a few days old.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I've never had a cat give birth to kittens myself these are the only people I 'know' that have had kittens and they have all had a terrible time of it.  These are 'good' breeders who put a lot of thought into the decision to start breeding, they did lots of research and went about everything in the right way and have spent a LOT of money on excellent vet care but they still had to go through the trauma of stillbirths and losing kittens.

If you really want the experience of 'raising' kittens then as MM said why not foster a Mum and her babies for a rescue.  They would obviously not be allowed out so where you live shouldn't be a factor in a rescue allowing you to foster for them.

[barney]

According to the Daily Telegraph today upto 50 cats a day were being handed into the RSPCA in December and they expect that to rise to 90 a day this month. As for dogs 42% of all those handed into the Dogs trust were of pedigree breeding. And people think this is an animal loving country, I don't think so...

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Just read your messages again and picked up on something VERY important

Your cat came with CAT FLU so is now a carrier !!!!!
The stress of having a litter of kittens could bring this on again and if the kittens caught it at a young age it could be fatal.

Something else,
Would your cat actually thank you for allowing her to have a litter ?
She will have to go through being pregnant, giving birth, bringing the kittens up and then to top it all off YOU TAKE HER BABIES AWAY !!

So really what i am saying is i am totally against your cat having kittens.

P.S
Your Mums cat should be "done" - as an ex-breeder she should know this really

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Like some of the others have already asked -
What is your reason for wanting to have a litter ?

[Gillian Harvey]

Can't understand why your mum, who you say used to breed pedigree cats, now wants to breed from her male cat, what would be the point? - and surely she would know all about breeding anyway.  Nothing against pedigree breeding per se, I mean, I have both mogs (rescues) and pedigrees (pedigrees from reputable breeders who want to improve the breed - as well as pedigree rescues), but as others have pointed out, there are already too many cats/kittens in rescue that need homes.

[Mark]

And people misguidedly put the word "Good" in bold capitals as if that makes the least bit of difference.