Lacie's latest trip to the vets - Good and bad news

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

I spoke to my vet today regarding the Zantac, I mentioned the tablets but she said because she needs such a small dose it would be difficult to split the tablet up and get an accurate dose, she did advise mixing the zantac syrup in with a small amount of tuna. I tried that this evening and to my surprise, she actually ate it! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she will keep taking it this way.

[Mark]

Clapton was the same. I think SEB has a really pungent smell but he didn't seem to mind it.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

SEB does have quite a strong smell, but Molly is very fussy about what goes in her food and she will eat food with it in. I can send you some of that too.

Thank you, thats very kind of you 

[Desley (booktigger)]

SEB does have quite a strong smell, but Molly is very fussy about what goes in her food and she will eat food with it in. I can send you some of that too.

[Mark]

tbh, I have tried every kind of wet renal going. The only ones in chunks are the rc ones and one of the Hills. All the others I have seen are a pate type and they all smell  - Although they all look/smell similar, the one I had the most luck with was the Purina n/f wet. I have sent all of Clapton's stock to Desley now apart from a few Kattovit tins and if Clapton was anything to go by, he wouldn't even go near them.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Yep, I use Purina renal, mainly cos it is a lot cheaper than the RC - I pay £11.06 for her renal food online, gerring RC from the vets was £18.36. There are very few dry foods Zi wont eat though, unlike wet. Zi doesn't have renal or senior wet, she is on Butchers Classic, but an adult wet and renal dry diet has got her numbers down and kept them down. She has had Zantac, and I stopped it sooner for the same reason you have done, I ended up with a foaming cat. You could try Slippery Elm Bark, that comes in a powder you can mix in with their food. I o think RC prescription foods go down better than Hills, but I dont know if that is just cos they do more of them in pouches so they look like proper food, unlike some of the Hills stuff that just looks like slop. I can sort out some samples if you like, I do still have a bit of RC left from when I changed her over as well.

I've tried her on both Hill's sachets and RC sachets to no avail - if you could get samples of other brands I would really appreciate it 
I've heard of using slippery elm bark, but does it taste/smell of anything? I'm just worried that putting something in her food might put her off her food - when trying to get her to eat the renal food i've tried, I tried mixing it in with her whiskers simply (which previously she loved) but now she won't eat the whiskers simply because she associates it with the renal food! She was the same with Purina Natural Balance, she loved until she was ill and in the vets for a few days. 

[Desley (booktigger)]

Yep, I use Purina renal, mainly cos it is a lot cheaper than the RC - I pay £11.06 for her renal food online, gerring RC from the vets was £18.36. There are very few dry foods Zi wont eat though, unlike wet. Zi doesn't have renal or senior wet, she is on Butchers Classic, but an adult wet and renal dry diet has got her numbers down and kept them down. She has had Zantac, and I stopped it sooner for the same reason you have done, I ended up with a foaming cat. You could try Slippery Elm Bark, that comes in a powder you can mix in with their food. I o think RC prescription foods go down better than Hills, but I dont know if that is just cos they do more of them in pouches so they look like proper food, unlike some of the Hills stuff that just looks like slop. I can sort out some samples if you like, I do still have a bit of RC left from when I changed her over as well.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Thanks, think i'll be getting some of those then   

[Mark]

Webbox are treat sticks. They are quite squashy so you can break a piece off and squash it around a pill.  http://www.petfavourites.co.uk/1_14107 They come in about 4 different flavours.

They sell them in Asda, Sainsburys, wilkinsons etc.

They are really called 'Cats Delight', but most people know them as webbox which is the manufacturer 

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

I'll ask my vet about both the senior food and the ranitidine 
What is webbox?! 

[Mark]

Felix senior seemed to go down OK here. I know how hard it is to juggle diets 

If the vet is OK with it. a 1/4 of a ranitidine squashed inside a piece of webbox would be a lot easier to give.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Could you give the zantac in a treat? - I'm guessing it is on;y 1/4 tablet at a time? - it reduces the amount of acid produced in the stomach so I would stick with it if the vet thinks she needs it. You can get generic 75mg ranitidine tablet in most supermarkets for about £1 a pack (1/4 tablet dose for a cat afaik)

I'm surprised the vet isn't recommending a reduced phosphorus diet as it reduces the load on the kidneys. Even switching to senior food is a big help (around 30% less phosphorus)

The zantac has been given to me as a syrupy liquid, I just can't get her to take it without really upsetting her (and myself) 
I'm going to ring the vets on monday to ask if I can get it in tablet form instead.
I'm not sure about changing to a senior food, any brands you can suggest? Its really hard trying to balance her diabetes and kidney disease.   

[Mark]

Could you give the zantac in a treat? - I'm guessing it is on;y 1/4 tablet at a time? - it reduces the amount of acid produced in the stomach so I would stick with it if the vet thinks she needs it. You can get generic 75mg ranitidine tablet in most supermarkets for about £1 a pack (1/4 tablet dose for a cat afaik)

I'm surprised the vet isn't recommending a reduced phosphorus diet as it reduces the load on the kidneys. Even switching to senior food is a big help (around 30% less phosphorus)

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Thanks for the info Mark, my vet said last night (especially after her I told her about her funny turn the other week) that I should feed her what she wants at the moment and forget about the renal food for now as she thinks the meds are enough at the moment.
I tried the zantac this morning - not sure if its going to be something I can use long-term as it was quite a struggle to get her to have it and it clearly tastes crap as she pulled some funny faces and didn't look to happy after taking it. I felt really awful because I hate doing things that upset her  I'm going to give it another go but if its still upsetting her, i'll have to stop giving it her and ask the vets for advice again.

[Mark]

I struggled to get Clapton & Willow to eat RC renal. Not sure how anyone can tell if RC is better as they are quite secretive with ingredients. There are quite a few brands around and I think it is a case of finding one they actually like. I hate the idea of forcing cats to eat unpalatable food just because it is good for them. The ones that went down best in this house after buying every brand on the market were 'Happy Cat' renal (from zooplus) and purina n/f renal. I'm pretty sure that is what Desley feeds Zi now. Another one is Eukanuba - I didn't really want to buy it (made by Iams)  but I got to the point where I would have bought anything Clapton would eat.

Anyway, Clapton survived just short of 5 years from being diagnosed. A lot of that time, he ate senior food. I think renal food is better in a lot of ways due to the increased B vitamins in it but I think it needs to be supplemented with good quality protein.

Desley will probably send you a few samples to try rather than having to buy big bags that may or may not be eaten.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Hi Sweetie -

Brilliant news about the diabetes, Sorry to hear about the kidneys
Although with meds and food she will have plenty of years ahead of her

Your vets obv stock Hills but have you thought of using RC Renal foods instead (my vet insists its better)

xxx

[Janeyk]

Glad to hear that Lacie is doing well now 

My cats have always liked Classic too 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Sounds very good news 

[Tiggy's Mum]

All sounds quite positive and a far cry from a few months ago when she was so poorly 

You can actually get Zantac tablets although they are only licensed for humans (as is the Zantac syriup though). They're quite small and need to be cut into four so could easily be hidden in a treat.

One thing I found brilliant for Tiggy's nausea was Pecid AC (famotidine 10mg) - this is only available from the US now but it was worth it's weight in gold as far as I'm conerned.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Hey everyone, Lacie has been on the Fortekor for a month now and we went to the vets for a check up today.
Her bloods came back really good, her Phosphorus has gone back to normal, her Creatinine Level is normal but her BUN is still a little high but my vet is happy with the result and says that it shows the tablets are doing their job. 
She also had her fructosamine test at the same time which is also normal so no changes in the control of her diabetes.
She was on an anti-emetic which she was taking until wednesday night when she sussed I was hiding it in her ham so I haven't been able to get the tablets down her since !
But I wasn't convinced they were working anyway as shes still been hellbent on eating grass when we go outside (although my vet suggested she may have developed a habit of it now anyway)
As another result showed she probably is still feeling nauseous, we now have some Zantac to try - its a syrup so may have a sticky kitty tomorrow!
I'm feeling pretty positive after todays vet visit, I was prepping myself for more bad news.
To be honest, she has been so much better this past month (after starting on Fortekor) Shes much more active and even has a bit of a play most days. She still seems to be liking the Butcher's Classic food but she weighed in at 5.6kg today so i've got to get that down a bit. I love my baby girl so much 

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Shes fine now thanks 
I've given up on the renal food at the moment as I can't afford for it to mess up the control of her diabetes.
She seems to love the butchers classic so far though, so thats good 

[Tiggy's Mum]

How is she today? Hope the 'funny turn' was a one off 

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Thanks for the advice Mark, I'm going to contact RC to ask about returning the food as I've had no luck getting her to eat it 
I tried the Hills k/d again, she had a little mixed in with her Whiskers Simply but didn't really like it.
She's also gone off the Whiskers simply a bit now (But still very much into her Hills m/d dry).
My vet wasn't pushing the renal diet, she said that if she didn't like the k/d then to cut her down to 2 x 3/4 sachets of whiskers simply instead of 2x whole sachets. I'm going to speak to my vet about diet again when we go back for a check up in a few weeks.

Lacie had a bit of a funny turn last night at about 11:30pm, she was ok one minute then she went all wobbly and her pupils were huge and she was wandering around with her head down sniffing the floor and not responding to my voice. It really frightened me and I immediatly thought that her glucose levels must have been too low (she hadn't had much to eat yesterday and with trying to get her to eat the renal, she had had much less food than usual over the course of the week) I gave her some ham and her dry biscuits and after a sit down and about 10 mins, she was ok again. Just so glad we were there when it happened. My OH stayed up with her until 4am to check she was ok. I did try to test her blood glucose level but it was the first time i'd used the monitor and I couldn't get a big enough blood drop, but seeing as she seemed back to normal I gave up so not to stress her out.

She has eaten pretty well today and I have also bought her some Butcher's Classic to try her on, which she seems to like *fingers crossed she doesn't go off this aswell!*

[Mark]

Royal Canin have a money back guarantee "Royal Canin are leaders in palatability. So confident are we that your pet will enjoy his   food   that   we   offer a no quibble, money-back guarantee. Simply return the food to your veterinary practice for a full refund."

www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/pets_with_kidney_disease.PDF

I would contact RC as the vet is obliged to refund. They have deliveries every day so it is no big deal for them to have it collected - Unless they have different rules for shops?

Price-wise, £7.50 a box is good by vet standards as even online place charge that much.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

SO not happy 
I ordered Lacie some Royal Canin Renal - I said 1 box of 12 sachets.....I ordered it from Manor Pharmacy, went in to pick it up today and there were 4 boxes! I said I only ordered one but they said thats how they come.....you get a 1 crate. They said they could send it back for me but they're already messed my order up once and I didn't want to delay getting her onto the renal food. I really didn't want to buy all four boxes incase she didn't like it......but I very reluctantly bought them (£30 worth of food!) The woman on the counter was really snotty with me too, I said, can I bring it back if she doesn't like it? She said no because they would be stuck with food they couldn't send back! I said, well so will I! She said well if she doesn't like it, just make her eat it!  I said I can't make her eat food she doesn't like! It really upset and angered me, she was so condescending and abrupt. To make matters worse Lacie had some of the food but left the rest so now I'm stuck with 3 full boxes and 1 opened box of food she won't eat. Could really have done without spending so much on the food when its gonna go to waste.  I can't believe they sell it in such quantities and won't take unopened boxes back. I'm at a loss of what to do now.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Well I still haven't had any luck getting Lacie to eat her renal food, I even bought a blender especially! It didn't really help as it still left chunky bits and she just licked them clean! 
I've just ordered her some Royal Canin Renal Tuna, fingers crossed that she'll like that instead!

[Mark]

It is a difficult one - Renal food is low protein but I see diabetic food is high protein 

Protein for renal is OK as long as it is good quality with 'high bio-availability' - egg white is the highest and protein from wheat ect is the lowest grade. Apparently, the good stuff produces few waste products - in fact, I want to buy some 'Two Chicks' dried free-range egg white for Clapton (the yolk is too high in phosphorus)

I do feel for you as even with just CRF to manage, I am constantly juggling foods and making compromises. This morning he wouldn't eat so I remembered I had some boxes of RC intense beauty pouches - he happily ate that with binders. It sounds like Lacie isn't such a fuss pot with food.

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Hmmmm, well that causes a bit of a problem because Lacie LOVES the m/d dry for her diabetes but wouldn't touch the m/d wet, I dunno about any other diabetic wet foods but I'm reluctant to take her m/d dry away because I know she will definately eat it. Hmm....I really don't know what to do 

[Mark]

The two most palatable (in Clapton's opinion) renal dry foods are Happycat from Zooplus (which I will be ordering more of today) and Purina N/F renal dry. Renal wet is another story. Once in a blue moon he will eat it, but most of the time he turns his nose up. They all smell disgusting  - Purina renal wet & sometimes RC renal wet (avaiable in beef, tuna & chicken) are eaten. The beef flavour seems to go down better than the others. Most other renal foods I have bought all look and smell the same - like sloppy liver pate. Clapton has trouble eating them with no teeth as the are gloopy. If they were firmer, I would be able to cut them up, but they are just a sticky mess. Even the purina one is like that but it seems to appeal.

I don't know anything about diabetic food, but have heard that Classic is recommended.

I had similar problems to you yesterday. In the morning, I gave him a pouch of Beef RC renal, which he ate 1/4 of + all the gravy. Later, I gave him a tuna one and he turned his nose up - I put some of the jelly and liquid from a can of Whiskas supermeat on it and he had a little go at it. Last night, I gave him another pouch of tuna RC and it was untouched this morning (no beef flavour left)

Now he is going in the garden, he is ignoring his renal biscuits and has been eating RC sensitive biscuits (Alice's) and he is also eating the Lidl Premium dry I buy for visiting cats 

As for the Hill/s K/D pouches, after he had his mouth op, he started eating it (It was left over from Willow's stash) as there were only a few pouches left, I order another 3 boxes from Petplanet - he then decided he wouldn't eat it any more 

So to cut a very long story short, I think renal dry is preferable for cats - so I agree with Desley.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I have found very few cats like Hills prescription foods, the RC ones go down much better here. Zooplus also sell a couple of renal foods that you dont have to buy in bulk, they come in 6 packs I think. Also, could you not give her diabetic wet and renal dry, renal dry tends to be quite palatable (although again, RC seems more popular here, although Zi is currently on Purina, which she loves)

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Thanks for the info Mark, its much appreciated 
Well, I thought Lacie was going to get on well with the Hills K/D, I put it down for her Friday evening and saturday morning and she ate it all up straight away, but then last night she just licked off all the gravy, ate a tiny bit of the meat and then ignored it completely. She would quite happily eat her M/D biscuits though so she's not off her food, it just seems she's decided she doesn't like the K/D (well except for the gravy that is!) I tried mixing in some of her Whiskers Simply steamed fish which got her to eat a bit more, but she still left loads. I'm wondering if it might be the flavour, it only seems to come in chicken flavour....she likes actual chicken but isn't a fan of meat-flavour cat foods, much preferring fish flavour ones. I might look into getting some Royal Canin instead. Seeing as she loves the gravy of the K/D, do you think liquidising it would encourage her to eat the meat more too?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Lots of cuddles to Lacie 

[Mark]

Just to add - Clapton was diagnosed early as it was picked up when he had bloods done almost 5 years ago. He has been on Fortekor (more recently Benazecare, the Generic version of the same drug which is smaller so easier to pill) all that time. Only in the last year has he needed renal food & binders - btw - There are quite a few other renal food one the market if you want a change I find most vet just recommend the brand they sell. I have found VetUK the cheapest. Royal canin do chunks in gravy in Beef, Chicken & Tuna flavours, Hill's do chunks in gravy and a pate version. Most other renal foods tend to be pate types - the one Clapton prefers is Purina n/f. One thing wet renal foods have in common is that they all smell 

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Thanks everyone, I'm feeling a little more positive now
She's been looking after me today, giving me lots of comforting snuggles 
As long as shes happy, i'm happy

[Tiggy's Mum]

if she hadn't been under close veterinary supervision because of the diabetes the kidney problem may well not have been picked up until it had advanced much further

so really it is a positive rather than a negative, given that so many cats do suffer from failing kidneys as part of the ageing process, because her treatment will start much earlier than the norm

Well said Trigger, couldn't have put it better 

Big  to you and a special for Lacie

[Kay and Penny]

if she hadn't been under close veterinary supervision because of the diabetes the kidney problem may well not have been picked up until it had advanced much further

so really it is a positive rather than a negative, given that so many cats do suffer from failing kidneys as part of the ageing process, because her treatment will start much earlier than the norm

[JackSpratt]

Lindsey, sadly it's quite common for kidney issues to be a  related illness with diabetes. But that doesn't mean it can't be managed too.

  You're doing a wonderful job with Lacie.

[sheryl]

Big  Hun xxx  Hope you feel better soon x

Think of the positives, that the diabetes is under control which is Fab news and that Lacie is happy and enjoying a great life with you giving her lots of love and care xxx

[Lindsey (thefunkyinuit)]

Lacie has been really well lately expect for being sick a couple of times. As she has also been eating grass, my vet wanted her to have a check up. She had a urine and blood test tonight. The good news is that her diabetes is now fully under control, the bad news is that she now has mild kidney disease  She's been put on K/D wet food (to have along with her M/D dry for her diabetes) and Fortekor tablets which she will have to be on long term. We're going back in a month to see if her kidney values have improved at all. Shes fine in herself and she hasn't lost weight at all so it looks like we have caught it early and should now be able to slow the progession of the disease. I haven't asked/looked into life expectancy e.t.c but to be honest, i'd rather not know. I'm doing all I can, I can't do anymore so I guess I just have to accept it. I feel really crap right now, upset about this, i've got a crappy cold and my hubby is working nights so hes not here to comfort me.