scabby cat - is it a flea allergy?

[Em]

Good news and more good news - I remembered late last night that TCP is OK for dogs (according to my vet) but not cats so didn't poison my babe, also I had a look at his back this morning and even more scabs are coming loose. They're still sticking in his fur so I've spent a good hour with him on my lap today while I tease some of them out, but the skin underneath is looking healthy and pink - with no evidence of new irritation.

Milly's mum - no wheat gluten in their dried food, they're on Trophy premium: ]url]http://www.trophypetfoods.co.uk/products/complete_care_cat.htm[/url]

Thanks again for all your suggestions. 

[Millys Mum]

I've also taken him off the wet food in case he's developed an allergy to one of the ingredients in Nature's menu (rice?).

He much more likely to be allergic to all the wheat gluten in his dry food than natures menu 

[Hippykitty]

P.S. If you've used this already TAKE YOUR CAT TO THE VET ASAP!

[Hippykitty]

DON'T USE TCP OR OTHER ANTISEPTIC These contain phenols which are HIGHLY TOXIC to cats and will kill your cat. It can be absorbed directly through the skin, paws, or by licking after you've used it. PLEASE USE SALINE which is the only safe, non veterinary antiseptic for cats.

Sorry for the caps, but this is really important. You are about to kill your cat!

I'm not patronising you, just passing on information.

[Em]

Thanks for that Lindyloo, looks like a good site.  Going to observe over weekend and take him to vets next week I think, get them to do a scrape. In the meantime I'm going to bathe him - not in the sink or anything as he'd very gently but firmly rip me to shreds  - but with cotton wool and diluted antiseptic (saline or TCP). I've also taken him off the wet food in case he's developed an allergy to one of the ingredients in Nature's menu (rice?). He's not happy about it though so I may have to bribe him with pilchards... 

Will let you know how we get on...

[Lindyloo]

If you think it is caused by flea allergy there is a really good site www.fleafree.co.uk gives good info about fleas and getting rid of them.
Lindyloo

[CurlyCatz]

Hiya Em.

I for one wasnt meaning to make out that you dont do your best by him.

I think it could very well be fad too and for those who get it altho routine flea tx is a must as you already do  but sometimes they do need abit of extra tx aswell.

Hopefully his skin will settle down 

[Em]

We had something similar with Fearne after we'd had her for a couple of months - it started with scabbie bits near the base of her tail and on her back - and our vet treated it with a steroid injection.

After the injection wore off it got a lot worse and started migrating to her face and head - we went back to the vet who thought it was a flea allergy - but no fleas were found on her and after 3 months flea treatment (Stronghold) still no fleas.

In the meantime the vet gave her steroid injections and she has now been diagnosed with Hypersensitive skin disease.

Which means that she is basically is allergic to something (could be food, pollen, dust mites etc). We were given the option of being referred to a dermatologist but after a chat with our vet we decided that long term treatment would be best - as we may not be able to control what she is allergic to (eg if was a tree pollen we couldn't move a neighbours tree) and finding out what it was would mean we couldn't treat it until all the tests were done (which means she would be in discomfort) and would take a long time to find the cause (cost wasn't an issue as she's covered by pet insurance - but would quite expensive) - and so she is now on 1 steroid tablets every other day. We may start to investigate if it gets any worse and the treatment isn't working.

She seems happy and isn't suffering (which was the important bit for us) and isn't scratching as much - unless you count the sofa 

I hope that you get it all sorted out  and you get to the bottom of what's causing this 

Thanks for that - it's currently looking as if it is FAD and I just need to treat him more frequently but I'll bear what you've mentioned in mind if it starts to flare up again.

[Em]

Em, if your cat needs antibiotics or steroids, get them. I'm also a bit of a hippy (vegetarian etc) but have to take regular meds which I know have been tested on animals, I have no choice if I want any quality of life. I've got neutropenia (immune deficiency) as a side-effect, so even the most minor infection means more antibiotics, cos I can't fight them. So sometimes you have to compromise your principles and choose the lesser of evils, in your case, choose your cat's health.
If money is a major issue, do you have someone who could give you a loan? A partner, work colleague, family? It may be a good idea to get insurance for the mog.
Generally, I agree with Lynn about your course of action: to the vet, antibiotics, steroids and tests.
Until you go to the vet maybe stop picking the scabs off, you're leaving exposed areas. When the scabs are healed they will naturally fall off. Maybe bathe the area with a saline solution (boiled water allowed to cool, put half a teaspoon of salt into a mug, fill it with warm water, allow the salt to melt) and cotton wool. Don't pick off the scabs. If your cat really dislikes this, you've used too much salt. This will act as a mild antiseptic and healing agent, but is no substitute for FL spray and the above mentioned things from vet.
Your cat is in discomfort, take action.

Hi

As I've said before, he's already been to the vets. To my knowledge, he is not in any discomfort (also stated before). Also, (as I've previously mentioned) I am not picking off scabs that are still attached, I'm picking off loose ones that are stuck in his fur - which is still thick and shiny.

All my cats are insured, and I could borrow money if I thought it were important -  can I just re-iterate here that I have had this cat for 13 years and I know him extremely well? If I thought he were suffering or had an infection I'd be down the vets like a shot, but he's actually getting better.

All I wanted to know, really, was whether FAD could be the correct diagnosis given the obvious lack of discomfort, itching and hairloss.

Sorry if I seem a little sharp but there does seem to be some assumption on the part of some people on this thread that I don't know my cat or that I'm letting him suffer in some way, and this is an implication that I deeply resent.

[Lyn-Su]

We had something similar with Fearne after we'd had her for a couple of months - it started with scabbie bits near the base of her tail and on her back - and our vet treated it with a steroid injection.

After the injection wore off it got a lot worse and started migrating to her face and head - we went back to the vet who thought it was a flea allergy - but no fleas were found on her and after 3 months flea treatment (Stronghold) still no fleas.

In the meantime the vet gave her steroid injections and she has now been diagnosed with Hypersensitive skin disease.

Which means that she is basically is allergic to something (could be food, pollen, dust mites etc). We were given the option of being referred to a dermatologist but after a chat with our vet we decided that long term treatment would be best - as we may not be able to control what she is allergic to (eg if was a tree pollen we couldn't move a neighbours tree) and finding out what it was would mean we couldn't treat it until all the tests were done (which means she would be in discomfort) and would take a long time to find the cause (cost wasn't an issue as she's covered by pet insurance - but would quite expensive) - and so she is now on 1 steroid tablets every other day. We may start to investigate if it gets any worse and the treatment isn't working.

She seems happy and isn't suffering (which was the important bit for us) and isn't scratching as much - unless you count the sofa 

I hope that you get it all sorted out  and you get to the bottom of what's causing this 

[Hippykitty]

Em, if your cat needs antibiotics or steroids, get them. I'm also a bit of a hippy (vegetarian etc) but have to take regular meds which I know have been tested on animals, I have no choice if I want any quality of life. I've got neutropenia (immune deficiency) as a side-effect, so even the most minor infection means more antibiotics, cos I can't fight them. So sometimes you have to compromise your principles and choose the lesser of evils, in your case, choose your cat's health.
If money is a major issue, do you have someone who could give you a loan? A partner, work colleague, family? It may be a good idea to get insurance for the mog.
Generally, I agree with Lynn about your course of action: to the vet, antibiotics, steroids and tests.
Until you go to the vet maybe stop picking the scabs off, you're leaving exposed areas. When the scabs are healed they will naturally fall off. Maybe bathe the area with a saline solution (boiled water allowed to cool, put half a teaspoon of salt into a mug, fill it with warm water, allow the salt to melt) and cotton wool. Don't pick off the scabs. If your cat really dislikes this, you've used too much salt. This will act as a mild antiseptic and healing agent, but is no substitute for FL spray and the above mentioned things from vet.
Your cat is in discomfort, take action.

[Em]

I'm wondering if the scabs came back so quickly because of the hot weather = flea outbreak. One flea wouldn't bother Charley or Seth, but if Sammy's somehow become super-sensitive then one flea a couple of days before another dose of Frontline was due could've upset him again? The dosage for Piriton might be useful - I may have to take Seth to the vet as well as his hayfever has got worse this year. Doesn't help that he goes and sits with his head in flowers - soppy cat. 

With regard to the antibiotic - if you've read the Asda egg thread you'll probably have gathered I'm a bit of a hippy type. I would never let this adversely affect my animals but it does mean that I always think twice before giving my cats or dog drugs of any kind if there's a more natural way of supporting their immune system instead.. I hope this doesn't make any of you think I'm a bad mum! 

[CurlyCatz]

there are some concerns with overuse of antibiotics in animals but as far as i know it isnt so prevalent or major issue as it is with humans, perhaps because animals lives are much shorter i'm not sure. 

It does sound like he will need antibiotics and if they started to heal last itme then it came back after a month i'd say he might actually need an extended course which is the case in many a resilient secondary skin infection.  still reckon some prednisilone would help too.

If he's not desperately itiching then thats ok, i was going to give you the piriton dosage but he doesnt need it if not overly itchy

[Em]

Is he scratching at all ? (sorry you've probably already said if he is or isnt but ive missed it)

No, that's what's confusing! He's scabby, which I guess means he must scratch or bite at some point, but we've never seen him do it. In fact when he first got scabby we thought he'd been attacked by another cat or something as the cats were showing no signs of fleas at all, they'd be frontlined about 5 weeks earlier (were just about to be done again), and he wasn't scratching or biting or acting at all distressed - he still isn't (although when you pull the scabs off he 'ecks' a lot so it obviously itches a little bit).

Lisa - if you read the early posts you'll see that he's already been to the vet, I started the thread as I wasn't 100% sure about the FAD diagnosis because the only symptom is the scabs. I prefer to avoid antibiotics if possible as every time they are used more bacteria become immune to them, so when a truly ill cat needs them, they might not work. Sammy has always had an amazing immune system and still heals in record time even at 13 years old.

He had antibiotics when he went in to get his teeth cleaned, and the scabs started to heal, but then after about a month they started coming back again and he started to honk a bit. After I gave him a good combing at the weekend and pulled off all the loose scabs and hair, the smell started to ease so I think it may have been smelly dead scab or something. I had him in my arms this morning and he wasn't very smelly at all, just smelled of normal cat!

As you can see, he's quite a happy,healthy cat apart from the scabs - this pic is from the 2nd of May

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

ive only just caught up with this thread

i wouldnt of said getting him some antibiotics was unnecessary

if it was one of mine  id of seen the vet asap

it must be uncomfortable for him
if it was smelly then there must be an infection
therefore he needs antibiotics for it .
is there no one who could lend u the money tillu get paid ?

[CurlyCatz]

Is he scratching at all ? (sorry you've probably already said if he is or isnt but ive missed it)

[Em]

The scabs are coming off at the moment, and the smell is going away so I don't want to get antibiotics or anything unnecessarily - I've got a few days before I get paid (can't afford vets before then) so I'll keep a good eye on him until then and see if he continues to improve.

[Ela]

I'll have a look at his back tonight but the frontline spray sounds like a good idea.

It sounds to me like he may need a injection to aid the healing.

 

he might need antibiotics and perhaps steriod tablets or injection.

Sorry Lynn I have only just read this bit. but agree 100%

[Em]

I'll have a look at his back tonight but the frontline spray sounds like a good idea.

[CurlyCatz]

I agree with hippykitty on the frontline spray..a good few extra pumps is safe and doing the tail base is a good idea.

sounds like it may be flea allergy but he maybe needs more than flea treatment to get it under control..a really bad autoimmune response can result from 1 flea bite so he might need antibiotics and perhaps steriod tablets or injection.  If he is smelly then that is a secondary bacterial infection i would think so antibiotics may very well be apropriate.

[Hippykitty]

If the vet is still sure that it's a flea allergy, get the frontline spray to use at the base of the tail. It isn't easy to overdose with FL, as it's very safe.

[Em]

Hello again

The scabs are on his back, especially towards the base of his tail. They peter out towards his shoulder blades. Since I frontlined him again and gave him a good grooming to remove the loose scabs and fur, he doesn't smell so much so it could just have been because he wasn't grooming properly? Am going to check him again tonight. If he keeps getting better I'll increase the frequency of the frontline treatments permanently I think, to three weeks rather than four - we've got woods nearby and a lot of local cats and dogs so it's probably better to be safe than sorry, I think. If it were mange, would you expect the other cats or the dog to have it too? 

If it were either of the other two cats, I'd consider giving him a shampoo to ease the itching, but I'd lose my arms. I'm currently sporting a couple of scratches just from trying to check his teeth... mind you, it's an improvement - when I first got him, you were taking your life in your hands if you tried to put a collar on him!

I get paid on Thursday, so if he's still smelly by then I'll get him into the vets for a check and a scrape, and get a pack of stronghold to be on the safe side.

Thanks again for all your suggestions, knew I could rely on you.

[CurlyCatz]

demodex could be another possiblility...where are the worst affected areas ? demodex most commonly around feet and face.  All animals may have demodex mite (a burrowing mite) but rarely its causes any probelms or gets out of hand until some level of immunosuppression.  A deep skin scrapes are needed for those.

Michelle frontline does kill cheyletiella aswell.

[Hippykitty]

You mention a smell. This could be mange. It's worth having more investigations done.

Sam has flea allergy and lost half the fur from the base of her tail, but it irritated her like crazy. This was in 95, a hot, flea-riddled summer, before the advent of moder flea treatments. She now gets treated with frontline, and has no problems; but I use both the drops and spray. I spray her ears and the lower part of her back.

I'm not sure that what you've described is flea allergy. It sounds like other skin problems. If your cat smells 'mousey' this is a sign of mange.

Go back to the vets and ask for a skin 'scraping' and further investigations.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

THink your meaning cheyletiella and skin scrapes arent necessary..mere coat brushings into a petri dish and then viewing under microscope,  I think frontline also treats that aswell (would have to double check tho)

Think it might be Stronghold Lynn

[CurlyCatz]

THink your meaning cheyletiella and skin scrapes arent necessary..mere coat brushings into a petri dish and then viewing under microscope,  I think frontline also treats that aswell (would have to double check tho)

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

It could be some other kind of Mite.

Does he have what looks like Dandruff down his back ?

There is a mite called "Walking Dandruff" (cant remember its scientific name), might be worth getting your vet to do a scrape

[Em]

Thanks for all your comments so far..

the cats are on Trophy premium, which they've been on for a couple of years now I think, and I've recently started giving them Nature's Menu pouches.. not sure if the scabbiness coincides with the wet food, but when I've run out for a few days his skin hasn't cleared up so I suspect not. I Frontlined the wee beasties (including the dog) a few days ago and his scabs are coming off again so I guess it could just be that he's not pulling his fur out like other cats do? He's got quite thick fur so you have to really hunt for the scabs even though you can feel them, although he has now got a couple of small bald patches and fairly bad furballs, which coupled with the fact that the scabs are really bad round the base of his tail and go up to just below the shoulderblades would seem to indicate that he IS chewing, just not when we can see him. Am going to give him extra salmon oil (Salmopet) for the furballs and skin and give him frontline every 3-4 weeks for a while and see if that sorts it out... up until now I was doing it every 4-5 weeks so there may have been a couple of days when he was vulnerable?

Will have a look at Burns, Lindyloo, thanks.  I try to give all the animals as good a diet as I can but I don't want to get into homemade stuff as I'm veggie myself (and don't like handling meat particularly) - Burns could be good as a change from the Trophy (which the old buys are starting to get bored of)

He's a very happy chap in every other respect...

[Lindyloo]

I've just been reading the Burns booklet by John Burns who supplies the Natural dry diets. He suggests that itching & scurfy skin is caused by an adverse reaction to food ingredients and reccommends trying either his own food or a home made diet. If you are interested in knowing more you could get a copy of the booklet.
www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk
Lynn

[Millys Mum]

Bizarre! 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

No Milly this was over a period of time and if she got bitten she had probs and that was what the vet told me..........she was also on another vet bought treatment at one time, I hadnt remembered that but found one of the labels stuck on an old calendar.......................dont ask me about the calendar 

[Millys Mum]

Will be interesting to hear what they say,i think Frontline has always been Fipronil.
Maybe with Kocka it just took a while to get rid of the fleas and it coinsided with changing to Stronghold 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thanks for the link Milly and I have emailed them to see if it has changed in the last 10yrs.

[Millys Mum]

Gill, link for you http://frontline.uk.merial.com/?Page=10

[Millys Mum]

Frontline does kill fleas on contact 

Have you changed food brands or started giving a new treat to him? You can have allergy tests done on bloods but i think they are rather pricey! They often come back allergic to loads of things (my sis is apparently allergic to electricity pylons and tv's, turns out it was all her creams and stuff screwing her skin up! Hypoallergenic my arse!  )

Putting him on a bland diet with just one source of protein would start the ball rolling to finding out if its food related. Your vet can give you a venison & pea diet or you can hunt something down yourself, lots of cats wont eat prescription diets! 

Can you show pics?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

If you areusing the basic Frontline, I would suggest you change to Stronghold or maybe Frontline Combo.

Stronghold kills the fleas before they bite, where as the basic frontline needs them to bite before they are killed, so then you can get allergy probs like I did with Kocka.

[Em]

I guess the sensible thing to do will be to trundle him off to the vets again... after I've attacked the house...  I'll have a think if we've changed any of our detergents etc in the last few weeks, too... strange that it came on so suddenly.

[Ela]

I was just wondering whether, since he shows no sign of itching at all,

I suppose it could be an allergy to a number of things, even whatever you use to wash the bedding.

[Em]

Hi Ela, thanks for your reply

Have Akklaimed the house, and I've got some Drontal - am psyching myself up to administering it though as Sammy's a complete nightmare to get tablets down and I'll end up with shredded hands (it took two nurses and a vet to do him last time). Once I get to payday I'm going to hire a carpet cleaner for the day, too, and do all the carpets and Akklaim again. I was just wondering whether, since he shows no sign of itching at all, it could actually be something else? He's got absolutely no hair loss either..

[Ela]

Any ideas? Is there a flea treatment which is more effective than Frontline? Or could it be something other than a flea allergy? Help!

I would suggest you spray your home once a year with something like Staykill. You may also need some treatment for
Sammy to get rid of the scabs. I trust you are worming the cats, as you possibly know if a cat has fleas it most certainly has tapeworm.