Poss IBS/Cancer - any experience?

[Desley (booktigger)]

Well, he had his check up on Tues, he has put weight on, he is now 4.4kg, the vet thinks he is a good weight, but I still think he is a tad thin (and I can still feel his kidneys, vet told me that was normal in older cats, I pointed out I have had cats way older and thinner than him and i haven't been able to feel their kidneys, although his are on the large side) - apparently he hasn't lost any muscle tone which is good. His fur is much better since we did the antibiotics, although he still can't tolerate pinching Zi's food (esp now she is getting more renal). The vet said his bowels felt pretty much the same as last time though. We are going to see how he goes, we would have to wait till next week if we wanted to do a fecal sample.

[Mark]

Don't some places sell it ready-minced? - maybe with the vitamin mix already in?

I have seen blocks of pet mince in PAH but doubt it is balanced for a cat.

I would give it a go but Kylie has never eaten meat as we know it. I have tried lots of times but she has never touched it - not even ham. I assume whoever had her before me never gave her different things to try. She loves her steamed coley though 

[Desley (booktigger)]

IT's not the time that bothers me so much as the handling of meat (I am a vegetarian).

[Fire Fox]

i think I will have to read that post again when it isnt' in the morning FF, as that has completely baffled me. Although a BARF diet is pretty much a no go, I dont mind buying cooked chicken for them, but couldnt do complete raw - he did have some raw chicken last week which he enjoyed though.

He is still a bit loose this morning, am sure he didn't get into Zi's food last night, but there is a good chance he got into the neighbours house, and she has JWB down all the time.

Out of interest, has anyone else with an IBD cat had issues with them constantly wanting food? He is still constantly wanting food, but isn't gaining weight, and just wanted to make sure it isn't normal before I see the vet next week, as at the moment I will be demanding a Free T4 test and refusing to leave till one is done!!

Sorry!  If any particular aspect (or indeed the entire post!) needs clarifying please ask. I do not raw feed full time so absolutely NOT preaching, but Noah's poop improves within 24-48 hours of introducing raw so could be worth a shot for a few days? Even if that is simply to eliminate or confirm that food sensitivity/ allergy is the cause?

For part-time I am honestly surprised how little effort raw feeding is. Heart is bought ready chopped, liver purchased ready sliced, kidneys I chop myself  but there is no need for kidney or liver for a few days of raw feeding. All offal is frozen on a baking tray lined with a silicone sheet then chucked into a freezer bag. Chicken drumsticks and thighs I buy ready frozen (Value/ Basics). After that it is just a couple of cubes of each offal and a chicken portion or two defrosted in tupperware and served up: no messy or time consuming mincing. 

Sorry if that sounds pushy or preachy, I just get a bit over-enthusiastic sometimes. 

[Janeyk]

Desley, what was Buster like at the rescue because he was there a while, have you asked them?

He didn't seem thin when I met him, has he lost weight or is he just not gaining?

I wonder whether he's not absorbing nutrients, has he had a stool test?

[Desley (booktigger)]

i think I will have to read that post again when it isnt' in the morning FF, as that has completely baffled me. Although a BARF diet is pretty much a no go, I dont mind buying cooked chicken for them, but couldnt do complete raw - he did have some raw chicken last week which he enjoyed though.

He is still a bit loose this morning, am sure he didn't get into Zi's food last night, but there is a good chance he got into the neighbours house, and she has JWB down all the time.

Out of interest, has anyone else with an IBD cat had issues with them constantly wanting food? He is still constantly wanting food, but isn't gaining weight, and just wanted to make sure it isn't normal before I see the vet next week, as at the moment I will be demanding a Free T4 test and refusing to leave till one is done!!

[Fire Fox]

Research shows that humans with IBS often benefit from a probiotic supplement, in many cases the trigger is believed to be a bout of diarrhoea, course of antibiotics or poor diet which caused an imbalance in gut flora. I recommend my clients use freeze dried acidophilus and not refrigerated dairy-based supplements as the concentration of beneficial bacteria is much higher, the formulation is more stable and some IBS sufferers are triggered by dairy proteins.

If kibble is a trigger, that might suggest Buster is having trouble digesting OR allergic to grain(s). Given that a cat is an obligate carnivore it would make sense to try a high meat/ cereal free diet rather than an expensive hypo-allergenic kibble. As Mark says some human IBS sufferers are fibre sensitive and others find it beneficial - if fibre is a trigger it tends to be insoluble fibre (roughage from wheat and rice); soluble fibre (sticky from oats, barley) is much gentler on the gut lining. Note that soluble fibre is a prEbiotic, that is it feeds the beneficial prObiotic bacteria.

If there is a possibility that the trigger is an allergic response to an animal protein, you might try a BARF-style diet as cooking denatures (changes) the raw protein. Omega-3 essential fatty acids have anti-inflammatory properties so might be worth considering as a supplement. Cats obviously also need saturated fats so I am not suggesting all meat is replaced with oily fish, nor am I suggesting all these elements are attacked at once.

[Steff - Petsearch Bedford HQ]

Sorry Desley I wasn't suggesting you kept him in, that would be so much more difficult for you to do with him being used to being indoor/outdoor and loving going out; I just wanted to explain Bourneville's situation. Plus I was lucky cos he was only 7 months when I got him so hadn't spent hardly anytime outside. I guess like IBS in human there are different triggers for different cats. My vet explained that cereal was common trigger so reccommended JWB and high meat content food. I was lucky that Bourneville got settled on that diet. I hope the yoghurt continues to help him

[Desley (booktigger)]

Unfortunately keeping him as an indoor cat isn't an option, he loves to go out, and goes in and out about 5 times an evening!! He pinched some of Zi's renal food last night, so isn't as solid this morning, so yoghurt can only help so much. We have finished the ab's now though, so a case of wait and see, he is due for a check up next week. He couldnt tolerate JWB before, and it seems to be biscuits that are his trigger.

[JackSpratt]

I don't know much about IBS in cats, but wanted to send a hug.

[Steff - Petsearch Bedford HQ]

That's why I ended up with Bourneville cos the previous owners vets diagnosed a sensitive tummy, put him on sensitive food and said he had to be an indoor cat so he couldn't go out scavanging. He lived with another cat and the lady couldn't feed them separately or keep him in only so she rehomed him. Once the giardia was sorted (with high doses of panacur together with metronidozel (sp)) the vet reccommended JWB because of it being hypoallergenic and to continue with the yorhurt. It took a little while he has been fine ever since.

I hope it is just that and nothing more sinister. I know it will be harder for you to stop him eating other foods but at least the yoghurt is helping regardless of what he eats. 

[Desley (booktigger)]

It hasn't because i pushed for ab's. Unfortunatley they can't rule cancer out, but I think as the natural yoghurt is working, it is more indicative of IBD. What is puzzling is no one seems to be that interested in what his diet is. Mind you, he is such a scavenger that even if he was on one, there is no way of stopping him eating the girls food, unless I starve them all day (he knows just where to scratch my door to open it!!), and if he can't find anything in my house, he will demand to go out to see if he can get in the neighbours house!! He is seeming thinner, so when he gets weighed next week, if he has lost or not gained, I am refusing to leave till a Free T4 test has been done

[Steff - Petsearch Bedford HQ]

I've only just seen this Desley, Bourneville had similar problems when I first got him. After lots of different tests (inc fiv) it was caused by a parasite (Giardia). Has a fecal sample been tested for parasites? The damaged caused by the parasite made his tummy sensitive. We could have gone down the biopsy route but in the end didn't. He was on natural bio yoghurt for about 6 months but it really did help.

I guess if cancer can be ruled out and the yoghurt helps then you could stick with that

[Desley (booktigger)]

Well, we have nearly finished the Baytril, but the thing that is helping him have solid poos most is Probiotic Natural Yoghurt, he has 2 spoonfuls a day, and is solid, if I miss a day,  he isn't. He still isn't allowed biscuits though, as even with Natural yoghurt, his poos aren't great. I wish that the manufacturers made 400g bags of prescription dry foods, then I Could try him on a sensitivity one. I have tried him on Purina One, as Molly can tolerate that more than any others, but he is still dodgy on that. Fortunately, I only got him one box of dry food cos it was on offer, must donate it to the rescue soon.

[Desley (booktigger)]

He's negative for both!!! Vet rang me yesterday just before the results came back and is happy to give me antibiotics, but has warned me that if I then want to do a fecal sample, it wont be as accurate. She also said that the lab said that as he has been housed with other cats at the rescue then TF is a possibility, there is a PCR test they can do for that. They also advised that he would have to wait 3 weeks after the steroid jab before having his thyroid rechecked. So, I picked up some Baytril last night (I hate that stuff), and will start it tonight - so that is all 3 on daily meds, and I am catsitting for a friend for the next two weeks and her cat is on meds every other day for part of the hol - so that will be 4 cats. What joy!!

[Desley (booktigger)]

Well, the owner of the practice was lovely, there wasn't really much she could suggest though. I have agreed to the FIV/FeLV test, as most websites said that they should be checked for FeLV first - praying that that doesn't come back positive, as I dont know what we will do if it does. She did suggest a fecal occult test, but he would have to have a red meat free diet for 5 days (and then the samples taken, I think), which would be incredibly stressful on him, and I don't think knowing about blood, infection or parasites in his poo would be worth that level of stress. She said that we could go down the biopsy route for a definite answer, but not sure I Want to put him through that. She would have happily done the FreeT4 test for me today, but he had a steroid injection last week which will affect the results. His poos still aren't fully normal nearly a week after the steroid injection, so not sure what that actually means, but he is happy in himself.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Thanks Pav, I am reluctant to go down the bland, pouch food route for the simple fact it doesn't seem to fill him up, when I have had him on Sensitivity pouches he has been scrounging for food quicker than when he is on tinned food, and he could easily eat 4 pouches in an evening. I would like to find a dry food he can tolerate, but according to the receptionist, RC have stopped doing sample bags, instead doing a money back guarantee. My other problem with diet is him going in the neighbours house, although I have noticed she hasn't been leaving her door open as much since Buster went in and had a go at one of her cats. HE isn't pooing as much since the steroids and he does feel heavier

[pappilon]

Desley , Boy was diagnosed with suspected IBD and lymphoma he was on steroid , i dont know if you remember or not but he was treated in RVC for a while and i was told to be sure they need to do a biopsy but in his condition they didnt recommend it. He was also hyper T. The diet they recomended for IBD was Hills Venison if you want i can look for his paper and information i was given by RVC and send you a copy.
Thinking of you .

[Desley (booktigger)]

I have got a second opinion on Mon with the owner of the practice, changing vets completely is a different matter, as any others would mean a longer journey (and worse at the moment as there are that many roadworks!!).

I did do some research after my post, cats get IBD rather than IBS and it seems quite common. He also does fit it quite well, including things like anaemia and flatulence (Which is worse this week actually!!). The only downside is that it did mention things the vet should have done, that he didn't, so I have a printout to question the owner of the practice on Mon. I am going to keep him on the same food, even though it isn't the blandest as he does seem to be tolerating it, and not allowing him any biscuits, which is going to make increasing fibre quite tricky. One of the websites I read said it could be quite serious, i suppose that is when they have severe vomiting and diarrhea, although it also said cats can get depressed with it and then stop eating.

Mark, he doesn't have renal issues, which does make things slightly easier from a diet point of view

[Hippykitty]

I clicked on this thread because of the mention of IBS, which I have and didn't think cats or males had. From what I've read about it, and what my doc said when she diagnosed it, it's pretty much a female syndrome. But cats are different, as with thyroid problems.

Having very quickly scanned Buster's history, I agree with Liz: change vets. Yours seems less use than a choc teapot.

If you do think he's got IBS, a bland diet, little and often, helps, as does increasing the fibre in his diet so that his gut is never entirely empty. Spasms with an empty large intestine feels like being stabbed with hot knitting needles! During an attack, having a poo or letting off wind help, as does a hot water bottle on the tum (maybe you could give Buster a well-wrapped water bottle to lie on).

I hope it is IBS. Its painful but harmless.

[Liz]

Change vets would be my thoughts  - if they seem not to be able to do the simplest tasks I wouldn't have much faith - ours dropped everything on a Saturday for Sweetie and we had the scan results and they were right for what she has apart from her diabetes!

[Mark]

Steroids might help with IBD but not IBS. With IBS, it is functional - there is no inflammation or damage - the system just doesn't work properly, causing spasms, gas, bloating etc. While it is painful/uncomfortable, there is no physical damage.

It is a tricky one as sometimes extra fibre helps and other times, it can make things worse (as in my case)

Doctors know very little about IBS in humans so I am sure it is the same with cats. I suppose you have tried sensitive diet? - although I know there isn't such a thing as sensitive renal food.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Busters background can be found here: http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,33289.new.html#new

He had another checkup last night and the vet was even more useless than last time - he started off by asking about his wee issues, I told him that he still wees on things about once a week, but I am more concerned about his bowels. He examined him and I am right, I can feel his kidneys, which shows how thin his back end has gone - but yet the scales say he has gone from 4.02 to 4.06 in 2 weeks - I think he has put weight on in one place and lost in another so it has balanced out. He checked his heart rate and he still isn't suspicious of hyper-t, but when he felt his abdomen, he can feel inflammation near where the small part of the bowel meets somewhere - not sure whether it is IBS or cancer, but he is verging towards IBS due to how it feels. He doesn't think there is any point scanning him as it wont show anymore than he can feel (he isn't very experienced in scanning), and that the only way to tell whcih one it is is through a biopsy, but as the treatment is the same, he thinks we would only benefit from an acadamia point of view - I disagree, as while the treatment is the same, the prognosis isn't, and I want to know from that point of view. He has given him a 2 week steroid jab to see, as he said if it was cancer, it wouldnt respond for as long as if it were IBS - I pointed out that Molly has been on steroids since Feb for Intestinal Lymphoma, so that doesn't sound right. He obviously couldn't have his booster last night, so he is going back in 3 weeks unless things get worse. He did say if it were IBS, he might only need them every couple of months. I am going to ring the other branch at lunch and see what vets are experienced at scanning, but if it is the one that scanned Molly, i wont bother, as he nearly missed her cancer.I am tempted to see who is on the Sat morning clinic, but as he has just had a steroid jab, I am not sure they will be able to feel anything, as it should have reduced some of the inflammation. One thing that really bothered me was that he never mentioned diet, and I thought that was a big part in controlling IBS? To make things even better, because of the steroid jab, I had a hyperactive, starving cat last night!!