early neutering will never be a solution for unwanted kittens

[Desley (booktigger)]

That is the sensible approach Debs!! I am not too sure why they operated on a hernia that young anyway, normally they do wait till they can have both ops at the same time - but it shows that they can get through an anaesthetic that young and a hernia op is a very invasive op.

[Debsymiller (Rufus' mum)]

The rescue's vet tickled me about a year ago, we had a male kitten with a hernia - they operated on that at 7wo (and then again 2 weeks later when he pulled it too much through climbing), but wouldnt neuter him till he was 5mo

That's crazy- why put them through the stress of an anaesthetic more than once? This is why, when little kitten Matthew (see my other post) had his leg operated on, vet took his 'boy's bits' off at the same time- although h'es tiny, he won't need another op.

[Janeyk]

 My vet has come across 3 and 4mo ferals being pregnant, which is probably why she is keener on getting them done younger.

I trapped a pregnant feral about that age Desley

[Desley (booktigger)]

Would rather say that over PM, Louise!!

[louise_81]

The rescue's vet tickled me about a year ago, we had a male kitten with a hernia - they operated on that at 7wo (and then again 2 weeks later when he pulled it too much through climbing), but wouldnt neuter him till he was 5mo

Sounds bonkers to me!!!

Who is the rescue's vet?

[Millys Mum]

The rescue's vet tickled me about a year ago, we had a male kitten with a hernia - they operated on that at 7wo (and then again 2 weeks later when he pulled it too much through climbing), but wouldnt neuter him till he was 5mo

 

[Desley (booktigger)]

I agree MM, when I had Shadow, she was the first unneutered girl in a while, so I asked the receptionist who told me 6mo - when the vet checked her stitches, she told me she does do them from 4 mo so people can let them out without a risk of pregnancy - despite only being the size of a 5mo, she was a week off being in season - and this was in December. My vet has come across 3 and 4mo ferals being pregnant, which is probably why she is keener on getting them done younger.

The rescue's vet tickled me about a year ago, we had a male kitten with a hernia - they operated on that at 7wo (and then again 2 weeks later when he pulled it too much through climbing), but wouldnt neuter him till he was 5mo

[Debsymiller (Rufus' mum)]

CP were advocating 16 weeks which all our vets will now do but the recent neutering leaflets we sent out (nearly 20 thousand!!!) now state neutering from 12 weeks which are vets will only do under pressure. We have a vet we use who's slightly out of area but a close personal friend of one of our volunteers, who will neuter from 8 weeks and has always had fantastic results. There is so much research to support early neutering that in the right hands of an experienced vet, it can only be a good thing. Vets should only do early neutering if they are confident and competent surgeons. Of course, the boys are a lot more straight forward and the girls need to be big enough.

If kittens are rehomed before they are neutered, adopters are given proof of neutering paperwork which must be returned after being completed by the vet which works well but we always chase if they are late in doing it. We are quite lucky with our area though and have the majority of nice homes here so don't have a lot of the problems that other branches sadly face.

[CC & The Pussycat Guys & Dolls]

With breeders they should wait to be given proof of the cats neutering before handing any papers over. Then of course they also sell breeding queens/studs so how can they be sure that the people that buy them are not using them for their own gains, what stops them from doing that? Someone could buy a stud, breed with someones half ped queen- then the person that owns the queen would have control over the kittens- so not entirely the breeders fault  or maybe it is for breeding in the first place I dont know 

I wouldn't get any of my animals neutered at 8 weeks they are far too small then no matter how safe it is! I also believe in a life is a life...no matter here or not, I do not agree with breeding.

I am currently waiting to see if my recent one in is pregnant, vet says another week and we should know. If she is well thats something I will have to deal with, if she isnt thats just great I would prefer her not to be but I wouldnt get them aborted all them same- sorry I dont agree with that either. Homes would be found if not they would be staying here and I will be closing my door to any more cats 

Sorry for the ramble...I have just watched an awful video and am feeling strongly about this at the moment, I think this will be my last and only post 

[Ann Clarke (Tabby cat)]

Agree with all the points about vets giving more thought to the rescue aspect on all of this. We use a few different vets as our fosterers are quite spread out across our area but struggle to get any to neuter at 4 months as per CP guidelines. the only time they will neuter earlier is if they are ferals and we need to get them done and released. The follow up on the rehomed kittens takes time but it's worth it to make sure they are done and we pester people to make sure but it would be much easier if they would sort them before we rehome.

[Millys Mum]

Julies point of getting vets and receptionists giving out accurate info would help, how many people are told their kitten can go out once vaccinated! 

[Mark]

I think if vets did neuter at 8 weeks the way they do in the US, we'd be amazed at the impact it had on unwanted kitten numbers.  Most of the accidental litters I'd dealt with have been brought about by well meaning people agreeing to give a home to an unwanted kitten from a friend or neighbour's cat, only to be caught out as they didn't realise queens reached maturity so young. Many of the people I talk to are stunned to find out a cat can become pregnant at 5 months. They seem to think they have at least a year to get puss spayed. 

What about the call I took 2 weeks ago where her "kitten" had got pregnant and to make matters worse, she was amazed the the "kitten" was pregnant again in a matter of weeks. She was then overwhelmed by having 2 litters and nobody wanted them - it spirals  

Then there is the gobsmacking call that Sharon dealt with where he wanted the kittens rehomed but was hanging onto a female one as his daughter had missed the birth and he wanted her to see kittens being born  

Scratch the previous paragraph. I thought it was something Sharon mentioned but it was on one of JS posts 

[Desley (booktigger)]

It would help rescues in more than one way - I know how hard it is to do the follow ups on neuters, and how much time that can take, and what I found was people did it a month after they should have done - I tried to persuade the rescue to write the 5mo date on the adoption form so that they would be done by 6mo, and not hte 7mo they seemed to be getting done at. i agree that eventually it will make kittens hard to get hold of, but that will take years to happen.

[Canterbury_cats (Sharon)]

I think as a branch if we had a vet in the area that would do kittens for us before rehoming we would... As i said before i know of only one that will routinely do kittens and they are not as yet in our area. And the only reason they do is that the vets nurses do work abroad and routinely do early neutering.

thnk about it we would never have to give the long talk on why neutering is so important when handing over a young 12wk old kitten before they are already done... I agree with Julie it would much decrease the calls and kittens we see, but then as a afterthough maybe it would make kiittens so difficult to get that those that were not from rescue would come at a high price. But then it could benefit rescues as our kittens would be by donation only and therefore maybe putting continual breeders out of business.. Now thats a future thought isnt it..?
Haveing said that from teh number of neutering calls we seem to be having lately maybe something has strike a nerve. Maybe its just the vets giving out our number more or more people seeing sense.. Whatever, we are nearly skint with neutering budget!!

[Desley (booktigger)]

With regards to your post Julie, I think maybe rather than charities like the RSPCA doing cruelty adverts, they should team up with CP to do a neutering advert to try and help educate people, and vets should have to follow CP's guidelines at a minimum, which is neutering at 4mo. My vet likes to do it younger so people can let their cats out without having to worry, I still think cats shouldnt be allowed out too much that young due to lack of sense!!

[louise_81]

It does seem that other countries are ahead of us in this game, America and Australia to name two.  I have to say my vet is good, and spays during pregnacy, but I think putting spaying off due to pregnancy is a human reaction, rather than one in the interest of the cat and potential kittens.  Every one likes cute kittens, but if you can't keep them all ,can you guarentee a good life, in most cases it is not.  Plus those little lives are taking the place of cats alrready looking for a home, if only rescues could persude people to take on cats like family and friends could. 

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

Well Louise, I can only speak by referencing the cases I've been involved with. Education always plays an important part of respondsible cat ownership... but it goes further than that I feel. Yes in terms of unwanted litters to young queens that I have been involved with, I believe almost all could have been stopped by a change in vets' attitude to juvenile neutering, and vets offering a clear lead to new owners who are often unsure of the correct thing to do.  How many of us go out of our way to become first time cats owners? My guess would be less than 10% Mostly we have cat ownership thrust upon us! 

Even when some folks do realise they need to act promptly after adopting a female kitten, and contact a vet or indeed CP asking when a female can be spayed, often the help or advise they are given isn't clear enough. We at CP will always give them the gypsies warning about how old kittens are when reaching maturity, and what will happen if a female puss is allowed out before it's spayed. Many vets, though, don't operate with the rescue ethos at the forefront of their approach and will simply say "she's too young... bring her back at 6 months" but exact ages can sometimes be wrong and often owners allow an extra couple of weeks so as not to be turned away again, by which time puss may already be preggers and it's a case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. 

So yes, education is always a great thing. But we would also like to see vets thinking about the rescue aspect more. There is no earthly professional or physical reason why kittens can't be neutered at 8 weeks and many 100,000s of young kittens are successfully neutered in the US every year... so what's stopping UK vets from following the lead then? 

[louise_81]

so maybe an increase in access to that knowledge, teamed with early spay would encourage more people to spay earlier than they are doing now

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

I think if vets did neuter at 8 weeks the way they do in the US, we'd be amazed at the impact it had on unwanted kitten numbers.  Most of the accidental litters I'd dealt with have been brought about by well meaning people agreeing to give a home to an unwanted kitten from a friend or neighbour's cat, only to be caught out as they didn't realise queens reached maturity so young. Many of the people I talk to are stunned to find out a cat can become pregnant at 5 months. They seem to think they have at least a year to get puss spayed. 

[Gillian Harvey]

but if rescues and breeders neutered before rehoming, it would cut down on the amount of unneutered cats available.

A lot of breeders are dong this now. 

[Dawn F]

I dont think contracts and withholding papers is a good enough method of stopping people breeding pedigrees - people who are going to see a ped as a quick way to make money aren't going to care too much about the papers.

no I agree, I was just giving some back ground to what was said on the othe forum

[Desley (booktigger)]

Angie - yes, there are a lot of people who think animals should be able to breed, but if rescues and breeders neutered before rehoming, it would cut down on the amount of unneutered cats available. It wouldnt make an impact at first, due to the ones people have had from friends, but eventually it would, and there would be very few places a person could get an unneutered cat from. I do like the idea of licencing animals though, although it is something that couldnt happen in the current climate, animals would end up being pts if it was brought in now, but breeders should be made to neuter all their pet quality animals and be very strict if they do sell on a breeding queen.
Dawn - we had two litters in last year who could be sexed from a couple of weeks old, they were clearly boys, and were big enough to be done at 4mo - my vet will as long as everything has dropped. I dont think contracts and withholding papers is a good enough method of stopping people breeding pedigrees - people who are going to see a ped as a quick way to make money aren't going to care too much about the papers.

[Kally]

we got our salem neutered with RSPCA when he was just 13 weeks old we got riff done at 4 months because of the fact that he came to us with his sister and we didnt want any extra kittens around chiana was done at 5months ish missy we think is spayed not 100% because no one knows her history and the vet said they dont want to open her up just to check especially since she is over 10 years old and we have had her for 4 years now she has not been in heat at all and there has definately been no kittens

now my ex tutor said that if you had them neutered too early they will develop cancer but from what ive been told from other people there is no evidence to support this and it is common practice to neuter before homing kittens in america or at least with the rescues it is i do think its a good idea to get them done before they go because then you dont have to worry about the potential owners that always go "oh but isnt it cruel to get them done id never do that to the poor thing"


but i also agree with Angie that all breeders must be licenced

[Millys Mum]

mine won't do boys until 6 months, says everything isn't in place until then????

They appear very young, everything is there just on a smaller scale, i think alot of it is vets dont want to open up a small animal.
Even well meaning owners who have no intention of having a litter can be caught out by an early season, lots of people home mixed sex pairs so on a yearly turnover how many extra accidents are born, early neuter would prevent these.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

A work colleague got a kitten recently (another work colleague's cat had a single kitten - think I mentioned that on here  ) - I was talking recently with her about the kitten (when to let go outside specifically) and was pleasantly surprised to find that the kitten had been neutered early by the rspca.  Not sure at what age but about 3  months I think.

[tortie]

our local rescue centre neuters and speys all cats and kittens before rehoming and has done for many years, my own cat was neutered at 10 weeks and he is now 9 years old, he has no ill effects from early neutering and i've not heard of any problems with this practice in the 11 years i've worked there,

[Dawn F]

mine won't do boys until 6 months, says everything isn't in place until then????

[Mark]

one vet locally want do neutering of males until 9mnths how stupid is that)!

My lovely neighbours? 

[Canterbury_cats (Sharon)]

One of our vets that isnt local to us but is moving soon and will be will neuter kittens..  Indeed they are keen to neuter at any age. Anyone involved in rescue will appreciate the time and effort needed to chase up all the kittens we have rehomed to make sure they are done. Indeed we have a lovely volunteers who does that for me. But its tiring work. A few yrs ago we took on 24 kittens to help out another Cp branch all were 15 wks or so old and all where neutered before placement. i cannot tell you how much easier it was...

The sooner vets get around to neutering early (one vet locally want do neutering of males until 9mnths how stupid is that)! the easier it will be for rescues..

[Christine (Blip)]

I first found Cat Chat when I was looking for the answer to a welfare question on Blip's behalf.  I do believe that one of the most valuable aspects of Purrs - and other such forums - is that we can spread the word about good cat care: apart from our members, many of the people browsing our forum and reading our posts may learn something of benefit to their cats (or dogs, or bunnies...).

[Mark]

Sadly I think the majority of animals aren't looked after properly. Mainly through ignorance.

[Dawn F]

sadly Louise the longer you hang around purrs the more ignorant people you will hear of - at least Ava is in good hands now

[louise_81]

I think that is a general 'rule' for most breeders as well, not just Bengals, again, it is the one bad apple, a breeder giving papers before neutering, either through inexperience of not caring enough.  I do think that if ALL registered breeder rehomed pet kittens already neutered then it is a big step in the right direction.  I am not saying that breeders are the root of all evil, what I am saying is that if those engaging in breeding animals for love rather than profit took the lead many will follow.  Having said that there is always someone out for a bargain, be it a cheap kitten to begin with, or recouping the cost of a valuable animal.

 I am sure that the vast majority of people who use forums to gain advice and knowledge about their chosen breed and in fact their chosen animal ( I have experienced it with rabbits too), will follow advice from breeders, rescues and their peers and neuter their animals.  I do think many people are influenced by those around them.

In my experience  (of a whole two cats and an afternoon in a rabbit rescue)  it is those who do not have the support of forums like this (and the bengal one), who encourage the use of vets, neutering, and proper care, who neglect their obligations and responsibilities to those in their care.

Evie and Ava could have had relief months ago, if their previous owner had de-flead, unfortunately Ava must have been tormented by them for months, as much of the fur on her back end has been chewed away in an endeavour to get some relief from the fleas.

[Dawn F]

a lot of them did say they had contracts and also many withhold papers until proof of neutering is provided

[Christine (Blip)]

Just to get a grip on the quote itself, did its poster offer any more context or evidence to back up his or her assertion?  I'd be interested to know if s/he did!

This person has said that until some registered breeders stop turning a blind eye to their homed pets being bred from, that early neutering is useless.

Ah, thanks for clarifying, Louise.  It seems to me that two issues are being elided here: the 'blind eye turning' and the question of early neutering in general.  I would argue that early neutering cannot be useless  as, to echo Blackcat, it removes the individuals from the reproductive pool right at the start of their lives.

However, that still leaves those registered breeders turning a blind eye to the fate of their homed pets.  They will not, presumably, be first in the queue for early neutering and as such it would be correct to state that the impact of available early neutering is lessened.  Is this not a question that the registering body ought to address?  By this I mean that early neutering or follow-up to ensure timely neutering could be made a condition of continued registered status?

[LilyandGary]

Funnily enough, I`ve just had a conversation with my vet about the best age to neuter my kitten Gary, who is 4 1/2 months old. They said if he was female, they would consider doing him about 5 months esp if he was going out, but as he is male they prefer to wait until 6 months.

If I had a male and female the same age, they would defo do the female earlier than 6 months.

I was asking as I have just taken (for fostering - have had to confess my sins to Angie ) a 6 month old ish female from the vets who was handed in as a stray over the weekend. She is doing the whole rolling on the floor business so will have to see what Gary makes of her! He`s not displaying any "adolesent behaviour" yet, (currently trying to play with the dog`s tail)! but dont want to be responsible for any more babies. Guess he will have to admire her from afar for a while.

I know its not really related, but as a dog trainer I have seen many puppies who have been neutered early. Some never seem to get out of the adolesent stage. You can also see behavioural issues with bitches who are neutered too near a season. This is  due to hormone imbalances related to spaying at the wrong point in cycle. Usually vets find it easier to spay 3 months after first season, which can be any age from 6 months old. My first girl came in aged 13 months, and her sister was almost 19 months. My boy was 23 months when he was done, and he has only just grown up now he`s 10!

[louise_81]

Discuss.


Quote comes from a breeder forum by the way.

I started a thread there on what you would do if you found one of your 'pet' pure breds was being used to breed, and if you want to know about it and what you would do if you did.  However it turned into a early neutering thread and threw this gem of wisdom up!!

Just to get a grip on the quote itself, did its poster offer any more context or evidence to back up his or her assertion?  I'd be interested to know if s/he did!

As it stands, I'd say that while early neutering will never be a total solution to the problem of unwanted kittens, it would at least inhibit the practice you describe, of unscrupulous people breeding from cats they had acquired purportedly as pets.

As I said in my OP, the thread started out as something different, but turned into should breeders neuter their 'pet' animals being sold on to prevent them being used for breeding.  We have talked about early neutering well worded contracts, with fines and removal clauses and refundable deposits held until the animal was neutered.

This person has said that until some registered breeders stop turning a blind eye to their homed pets being bred from, that early neutering is useless.  She does say she is open mided to early neutering, but feels it is the best interest of the cat not to give it more stress than it already has at 13-14 weeks when they leave home etc, and trusts their instincts when letting a kitten go to its new home.

[blackcat]

In Australia, most rescues neuter before placement. So if kittens or puppies, then they are well sorted before adoption. It is difficult to argue that this does not help, since none of these animals go on to reproduce themselves. clearly there will continue to be backyard breeders and feral animals breeding indiscriminately. But these, the ones from responsible rescues, do not. Therefore by definition, it reduces the potential population by removing large numbers of animals from the reproductive pool. To argue otherwise is a nonsense.

[Angiew]

it may help a bit with the unplanned pregnancies but there are too many   who like their animals to breed. if kittens ever get in short supply, demand will go up and as with any market forces the supply will increase.
The only way forward is for all domestic pets to be chipped and neutered by law. Animals should be licensed and this money used to fund welfare officers who can go around scanning and chasing up on young animals being sold. For animals that are not neutered, the license fee should be huge (or a heavy discount for neutering!).
Unlicensed animals should be removed and neutered/rehomed and the owners fined.
It should also be illegal to breed unless you have a license to do so.

It sounds draconian but until people grow up and take responsibility it is the only way. it only takes a few idiots to undo a lot of hard work and if people see there is good money to be made then nothing will stop them.

Thats the nice way. The other way is to get anything not chipped / neutered euthanased by law.

[clarenmax]

Both cats I've adopted were picked up as strays aged about 2, but both were neutered by CP before coming to live with me.  I've no experience with young cats to be honest.