Cloned kittens

[gatinha555]

Hello! they are very cute, aren't they? Didn't know about clicking the pics to make them bigger ! Their ears are up now and they have a whole room to themselves so they are running around everywhere. I am not thinking about selling, I'm hoping to give them away to really good homes. The ginger has already a home to go to and the tri-coloured girl hopefully, too, but haven't found a home for the ginger & tabby(really fat girl) and the smallest girl, mostly grey tabby with smudges of ginger- the only one with a different stripe pattern. Are the colours dilute?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Aww - they are cute! 

The pics become bigger when you click on them.

[Millys Mum]

Oooo dilutes, my fav 
Be careful who you sell them too, some people will see them as a money making potential as the colouring is not very common.

[gatinha555]

Last one 

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[gatinha555]

Bigger babies

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[gatinha555]

Mum & babies- wish I knew how to make pictures bigger!

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[gatinha555]

More

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[gatinha555]

Hello, here are some pictures of the "cloned" kittens

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[berties mum]

Very, very interesting!  Thanks, all you clever people!  Bertie's mother is an absolute true ginger cat - you've seen photos of Bert and she looks just like him with a white bib and paws - bright ginger and stripey.  No question at all that she's a tortie.  Whereas Matilda was a proper tortie, not least in temperament!  Wow, have always wondered about that one.  The mystery is who the other dad is then    Vet also thought Matilda may have been conceived slightly after Bertie as she was always a lot smaller ...

[Reynard]

Bertie's Mum, your vet is entirely correct. It sounds like it was a double mating to get the tortie girl in amongst that lot.

Desley, the way the orange gene works makes it unlikely for the black gene to have come from the grandparents. However, if as you suggest that the mum may have been genetically tortie but by appearance (phenotype) ginger - yes, it does happen, but it is pretty rare - then the mix of kittens *IS* a possibility. You would get ginger females, tortie females, ginger males and black males from a tortie - ginger mating, but as I said earlier, it's down to chance as to whether you'd get the entire mix.

Multiple matings are pretty well much the norm with cats (unless in the controlled situation of pedigree one-on-one matings) so the double mating is by far the most logical explantation for bertie's Mum's kitten conundrum.

It's also one of the reasons that you can get "explosion in a paint factory" kittens - as so wonderfully succinctly put by Pinkbear. 

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

We had a pregnant stray in last year who was diffused patch calico. Her babies were so beautiful!  But it was a bit like an explosion in a Dulux factory. 

[Desley (booktigger)]

Yep, your vet is right - I wonder if there would be a chance of the black gene popping up from say grandparents. WAs mum a full ginger - they can be classed as torties by having just one very small patch of colour on them, so if she had just a very small patch of black somewhere, genetically she would carry the gene for it. Although I suppose it would be odd to have one tortie and 2 gingers in the litter though if htat were the case

[berties mum]

Blimey, this is really complicated    Can I ask a question Reynard, since you seem to be the expert on this ..... My Bertie's mother is a ginger female who had a litter of five kittens - two ginger males, two ginger females and a tortie female, my Matilda (RIP).  Bertie's father is, beyond doubt, a ginger tom on the same estate as his mum, who is still around and is a dead ringer for the adult Bertie.  (And I THINK, from what Reynard says, that this must be certain as the other two girls are ginger).  The first time I took Bertie and Matilda to the vet, the vet said there was no way they could have the same father if their mother was ginger and we knew who Bertie's dad was, and that you only get tortie females from a combination of one ginger parent and one black/ black and white parent ... any ideas?   

[Reynard]

Hello, thanks for your reply; so, for her to have a ginger kitten means she could've only mated with a ginger cat, or at least one ginger cat? She has ginger markings on her, as well as a ginger face, so could she carry the ginger gene and had the ginger kitten even if she didn't mate with one? Sorry, I am very sure I understand !

It was kinda late on a friday night and my brain wasn't quite in gear...  I've done some quick work with a pencil and paper and have ammended my original post. 

Your girl carries the ginger gene, but as she is a tortoiseshell, she only carries one copy of the gene rather than two, hence the wide variations in kitten colours.

If she carried two copies (as the ginger gene is only found on the x-chromosome) then she would be ginger - the reason why ginger girls are less common than ginger boys as the boys only need the single copy of the O gene whereas girls need both copies i.e. OO to be ginger.

Ginger males only have a single copy of the ginger gene and can only pass it on to their female progeny. Their male progeny will always be non-ginger if mated with a non-ginger female. Mated with a tortie female will give ginger males, but the gene comes from the maternal line in that case.

You'd really only be able to tell what colour of cat she'd mated with if you get the complete range of kittens - like with any statistical exercise, you can come up with a range of probabilities, but the sex and colour of kittens is also down to chance, especially in a case where you have so many possible probabilities. I'd still hedge towards the ginger boy but you'd only truly be certain of that if you'd got some ginger girls. 

[blackcat]

Just for clarity, Dawn means that the milk will generally dry up two weeks after the kittens are weaned. Not that they can be weaned at 2 weeks. They should stay with their mother while they are still suckling, which will be for a few weeks after they have transferred to eating some solids. Ideally they should not be homed until they are at a minimum of 8 weeks old, better to wait until they are 10 weeks old.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

I'm glad to hear you will be getting mum spayed    My vet usually advises getting them done when the kittens has stopped feeding and the milk has dried up which usually takes about 2 weeks.  Until she can be spayed, I would advise keeping her indoors and then there won't be any accidents.  Your other 2 females are now at the age where they can done, even if they are indoor cats.  If you have problems posting piccies, you can email them to me and I'll post them for you.  If you click on my profile, you will find my email address on there  to the forum btw 

[gatinha555]

Hello, thanks for your reply; so, for her to have a ginger kitten means she could've only mated with a ginger cat, or at least one ginger cat? She has ginger markings on her, as well as a ginger face, so could she carry the ginger gene and had the ginger kitten even if she didn't mate with one? Sorry, I am very sure I understand !

[Reynard]

Right, time to put my cat genetics hat on...

Sounds like your girl is a tortie tabby. her genotype will be something like A-Oo i.e. tabby (either homo or heterozygous for tabby) and tortie. The orange (ginger) gene is, unlike the other colour genes, sex-linked and only occurs on the x-chromosome. So a female cat can be ginger i.e. homozygous for orange (OO), non-ginger (oo) or tortie i.e. heterozygous for orange (Oo). A male cat, due to being XY can only either be orange i.e. O or non-orange i.e. o

A tortie female can pass on both the O and o genes to her progeny.

If she mated with the tabby boy with a genotype A-o, she could have had tortie and tortie tabby girls, tabby girls and tabby or ginger boys.

If she mated with a ginger boy with a gentotype A-O, she would have had tortie and tortie tabby girls, ginger girls, ginger boys and tabby boys.

If she mated with a black (or B&W) with a genotype aa-o, she would have had tortie tabby and tortie girls and ginger, tabby or black males, depending on whether she was homo or heterozygous for tabby.

So chances are she mated with a ginger boy both times methinks, but not guaranteed.

[gatinha555]

Hello, the 2 kittens I kept are both girls, and all my males are castrated(I have 9 cats), the new litter is just a few days old, they will go to new homes before they have the chance to mate. I always spayed/castrated my cats, this time it negligency on my part, with the move, so much going on, etc. but thanks for thr advice

[blackcat]

as the litter is a mix of boys and girls, there remains a risk of pregnancy simply because they will mate with each other. I would encourage you to get them all neutered at the earliest possible opportunity or you will have a cat population explosion. Imagine if mum and her daughters all had kittens!! Much as I adore kittens it is too scary a thought!!

Do get some expert professional advice, and have your cats neutered as a matter of priority. If it is an issue of cost, i am sure if you were to approach your local CP they can offer your vouchers for low cost, or free neutering.

Because not only are you exposing your lovlely furbabes to all sorts of health risks, you are potentially causing yourself a major problem. And I am sure you don't want your house overrun with cats in various stages of pregnancy, as well as spraying entire toms ...

[gatinha555]

no, they are not allowed out yet.

[Gillian Harvey]

Her other kittens(I kept 2) are still only 6 months old,

Hopefully they've been neutered now too?

[blackcat]

yes, they do that. That is why there are so many homeless cats. Do ask your vet for advice regarding dietary supplements, as having had two litters in such a short time, your girl will be needing some extra help with vitamins and minerals to help keep her going. Professional breeders do not allow their queens to have more than 3 litters every two years, as it is very hard on the mother ...

[gatinha555]

Hello, many thanks for your reply. I knew that the females can mate & give birth to kittens of more than one male, but just found strange that she mated with different male(s) and had the same kittens; so maybe her genes are sort of stronger than the males? I will definitely be having her spayed when the kittens are 4-6 weeks. Her other kittens(I kept 2) are still only 6 months old, we moved here when they were a few weeks old and although we kept the mum in for a while, when we let her out she got pregnant almost straight away!

[blackcat]

It is unusual, but not unheard of. The coat colour is determined by the genes the parent animals carry. A queen can have kittens that are fathered by more than one tom in a litter. The phenotype (actual appearance of the animal) is not an accurate representation of the genotype (the actual genes that the cat carries) as recessive genes need one from each parent to make an appearance. I assume you have learned from your experience and will not be allowing your girl outside until she has been spayed this time ...

[gatinha555]

Hello all, I am new here, although I think I have posted once in this forum before; just curious about something- my cat had a second litter, first time last year she had 1 male ginger, 2 light grey & ginger females(that grew into brown tortoise/ginger kittens) and one male brown tabby. Then we moved to another area and before we had the chance to neuter my cat, she got pregnant again, and had 4 kittens again, and exactly the same colours/sex. I have seen a male black & white cat around and assumed the kittens would be different colours, as the males where I used to live were a ginger and a tabby cat(s). I remember my cat's mother also had 4 kittens, again the same colours(one ginger, too), and I kept her because she looked just like her mum, tabby & ginger, with a ginger face. Is this a normal thing, to always have the same type of kittens? Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I don't know. Many thanks.