Topic: Breeding- agree or disagree? (Read 21649 times)

Team Svartalfheims · « **Reply #79 on:** March 27, 2008, 23:44:23 PM »

Quote from: Millys Mum on March 25, 2008, 16:09:14 PM

I dont know much about showing, but what are the prizes like for those really into the scene? Horse comps rack up some serious £££'s

If you win Best in Show then it's a trophy and bag of cat food in addition to the rosettes and certificate you get for winning your class and being nomintaed for BIS.

MCAW · « **Reply #78 on:** March 26, 2008, 12:03:53 PM »

Quote from: Yvonne on March 25, 2008, 20:49:03 PM

Quote from: MCAW on March 25, 2008, 19:31:25 PM
Hi Yvonne, my Mannie is a Manx moggie but if you saw him you would think he was a true Manx, has yours got the longer back (very powerful legs) looks like a Hare from behind hopping along? Mannie has all of the problems associated with a true Manx!! nightmare but I love him to bits!!

Hi MCAW - would you like to let us know what your name is?

Hi Yvonne,

My name is Jo, when I say Mannie's problems started at 4yrs this was the incontinence and the chronic constipation, his problems with the crystals started when he was about 6yrs old (he is now 14) He was certainly well past his kittenhood when the problems started. He is a beautiful boy, he has a big round head, he is just like a teddy bear!
He has a wonderful life, he's got me to clean up for him! He is OK and as long as I keep up with him! I find it alot easier to keep him clean by trimming the fur around the anus, he just lies down and lets me do whatever I want!

Sorry to hear about the problems that Mannie has but I believe that Manx syndrome appears before the age of four months, I think I read that your Mannie developed problems at four years.

My Homer is Manx, about as true as you can get, a Manx mother Roxy who lives a few doors away and is really beautiful and a Manx father Oscar. So far so good he appears to be in very good health, he is just coming up to one year. We have three Manx's at the stables all elderly and in good health for their years.

What is the prognosis for Mannie - can anything be done?

[/quote]

Reynard · « **Reply #77 on:** March 25, 2008, 22:15:27 PM »

Quote from: MCAW on March 25, 2008, 18:56:42 PM

Mannie is not a pedigree, he is a cross breed (but as said all the symptoms of a true Manx)

MCAW, because the Manx gene is dominant, a cat only needs one copy of the gene to have the full set of traits. So effectively he is as Manx as you can get.

Bless him, he seems to have fallen on his paws with you.

The Manx gene, M, is one of a group of dominant traits where a cat needs only one copy of the gene to take on the characteristics. (Cat genetics is sooooooo fascinating

) Two other well-known dominant genes, none of whom are as problematic as the Manx gene and where you only need a single copy for a given trait are as follows:

A (agouti): the most common of all. A cat who is A- (either AA or Aa) will always be tabby.

W (dominant white): Cats who are W- will always be white as W masks all other colours. However, a cat that is W- and only carries one copy of the gene can have kittens of the colour(s) that the W gene is masking.

However, the majority of genes that provide the variations between the different breeds and also the different colours within the breeds are recessive, so both parents need to be carriers of the genes. Take blue cats as an example, to get blue kittens, either:

a) Both parents must be homozygous for blue (genes aa-dd) i.e. they are blue themselves
b) One parent must be blue (aa-dd) and one must carry blue (aa-Dd)
c) Or both must be aa-Dd i.e. both are black.

Yvonne · « **Reply #76 on:** March 25, 2008, 20:49:03 PM »

Quote from: MCAW on March 25, 2008, 19:31:25 PM

Hi Yvonne, my Mannie is a Manx moggie but if you saw him you would think he was a true Manx, has yours got the longer back (very powerful legs) looks like a Hare from behind hopping along? Mannie has all of the problems associated with a true Manx!! nightmare but I love him to bits!!

[/quote]

Hi MCAW - would you like to let us know what your name is?

Sorry to hear about the problems that Mannie has but I believe that Manx syndrome appears before the age of four months, I think I read that your Mannie developed problems at four years.

My Homer is Manx, about as true as you can get, a Manx mother Roxy who lives a few doors away and is really beautiful and a Manx father Oscar. So far so good he appears to be in very good health, he is just coming up to one year. We have three Manx's at the stables all elderly and in good health for their years.

What is the prognosis for Mannie - can anything be done?

Beanie · « **Reply #75 on:** March 25, 2008, 20:05:03 PM »

Milly's Mum said

Quote

Beanie, roger?

I hadn't seen Roger on this thread unless he has a different handle. It did occur that you might think we are one and the same but I can confirm that we are different people. He's a Brighton fan ( established in an old thread) and I'm 100% Fulham

Beanie · « **Reply #74 on:** March 25, 2008, 19:49:23 PM »

Hi Milly's Mum,

Thanks.

I hadn't seen that link. I had assumed it had been raised before but I have been missing for a while. I'll have a good gander.

MCAW · « **Reply #73 on:** March 25, 2008, 19:31:25 PM »

Quote from: Yvonne on March 25, 2008, 11:26:09 AM

I am not sure where the Manx fits in here but I refuse to call them moggies because of a lack of papers, most people know what a Manx looks like. I have four cats, three moggies and one Manx moggie. If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.

Hi Yvonne, my Mannie is a Manx moggie but if you saw him you would think he was a true Manx, has yours got the longer back (very powerful legs) looks like a Hare from behind hopping along? Mannie has all of the problems associated with a true Manx!! nightmare but I love him to bits!!

MCAW · « **Reply #72 on:** March 25, 2008, 18:56:42 PM »

Hi Reynard,
Yes I fully understand what you are saying, I know there are different types of the Manx, some with a small stump of a tail and some without a tail which are usually the ones with most problems. We are not vets or breeders, just animal welfare volunteers, we are mearly trying to point out the problems that can be associated with the tailless Manx. People need to be aware of what they could be taking on when homing a Manx. When we get them through our rescue we are always very cautious as to whom we re home them to, we always tell any prospective owner the problems that MAY occur!
As I have already said my Manx who is obviously a throw back in a gene from somewhere (Mannie) has all the classic symptoms of a true Manx, Spina Bifida the congenital malformation of the spinal cord and vertebrae which is very common in the tailless Manx. Mannie's clinical signs include large hind legs, hopping, crouched pelvic limb gate, urinary incontinence and chronic constipation. This only started when he was around 4yrs old.
Mannie is not a pedigree, he is a cross breed (but as said all the symptoms of a true Manx) he was bought (not by us) from a local pet shop for £5, luckily he came into MCAW and I gave him a home. Looking after Mannie properly is a priority, his bottom needs cleaning daily plus because of the urinary dribbing he needs vaseline around his little bits to avoid his skin becoming sore through the urine burns. Mannie has also had problems with urinary crystals which resulted in surgery to help him pass the crystals easier. He is on a special diet for this problem which does help!

I love him to bits but there are alot of people who would not cope with the incontinence problems I'm forever chasing around with incontinence sheets! There is also the frequent vet bills that some people may not be able to afford then what would happen to the cat?

I'm just trying to say to anyone who owns or gets a kitten with no tail PLEASE, PLEASE GET IT NEUTERED!! We know of people local to our area who have them (hence the reason we end up with them!) they think it's a novelty to have a cat without a tail until the problems start!!
Before anyone asks, we would love to neuter the adults for them but unfortunately if they can sell the kittens for £5/£10 they will carry on!!

Reynard · « **Reply #71 on:** March 25, 2008, 17:07:28 PM »

Quote from: MCAW on March 25, 2008, 14:18:56 PM

I may be wrong but I'm sure they are no longer recognised by the governing body of the cat breeders

The Manx Cat is one of the oldest established pedigree breeds. It is fully recognised by all the major governing bodies of the Cat Fancy. The Cymric, a semi-longhaired version is recognised by most, but NOT by the GCCF. The current position of the GCCF on this matter is that if the Manx were a new breed, they would not regognise it and therefore it would not be eligible to show. They have a similar standpoint on the Scottish Fold.

The Manx gene, M, is a dominant mutation and because of the isolation of the Isle of Man from the mainland, most members of the indigenous cat population carry the gene. In its dominant homozygous form MM, the gene is lethal and the kittens die in utero. Cats we know as Manx are heterozygous carriers of the gene i.e they are Mm for the gene and carry only a single copy of the dominant gene. However, this does not guarantee total taillesness - the gene expresses itself to varying degrees. Cats with the recessive mm gene will have tails.

What the Manx gene does is fuse together the vertebrae from the pelvis rearwards as well as shortening the tail and or giving rise to a complete lack of the tail as would be required in the show quality Manx. This altered anatomy also accounts for the distinctive gait of the cat. Unfortunately, other issues arising from the M gene are spina bifida and malformation of the large intestine and anus - which is why Manx cats do have toileting issues.

Manx are difficult to breed because of the way the gene acts - you have to mate heterozygous Mm to heterozygous Mm or heterozygous to recessive mm in order to try and avoid the lethal gene. There are not that many breeders because of the this and as a result you don't see many Manx cats on the show bench.

However, just as an aside, the other reduced-tail breeds i.e. Japanese Bobtail are not related in any way genetically to the Manx.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #70 on:** March 25, 2008, 16:47:03 PM »

Yvonne, the Manx is a tricky one, as unless you have had them from a kitten, you have no way of proving it. Rolo looks like one, yet both vets he has seen say it has been amputated, despite it being so extreme, so he is down as a tailless cat, not a Manx, as we have no proof. Manx aren't widely bred in other countries due to issues - you can't breed Manx to Manx due to the gene that causes it, if you do, most of the kittens will die in the womb. If I remember rightly (can't be bothered to walk downstairs), it is a Spina Bifida type of gene, and the lack of tail can affect their bowels and bladders due to the muscles being in that area. It was however a natural mutation.

Millys Mum · « **Reply #69 on:** March 25, 2008, 16:09:14 PM »

Money has to come in to it, even more so for dogs, the prices pups sell for are crazy.

Beanie, roger?

the toyger has come up before, have you seen any of these new cats? http://www.newbreedcats.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
Some strange ones on that site

I dont know much about showing, but what are the prizes like for those really into the scene? Horse comps rack up some serious £££'s

Gail Bengal Slave · « **Reply #68 on:** March 25, 2008, 15:14:18 PM »

Can't really comment as I have two pedigree Bengal's. BUT when I see kittens and he/she will produce beautiful babies I do feel for the little one.

I would just have him / her as my babe (Op carried out).

Yvonne · « **Reply #67 on:** March 25, 2008, 14:59:02 PM »

What was the matter with them?

I am aware that Manx syndrome exists but I have never had a problem with any of my Manx's and I am not aware of any problems at the present time with friends or neighbours cats.

Ela · « **Reply #66 on:** March 25, 2008, 14:52:07 PM »

Many years ago when I was on the Isle of Man I adopted a cat from their MSPCA, initially we were going to adopt an adult Manx but were told I have to tell you that many are dirty on their back end. So we adopted Tango a 'normal' adult cat and had her for over 16 years. A few years ago we went to a rescue in Santon on the Island and there I saw what we were told, many Manx cats in a terrible state.

MCAW · « **Reply #65 on:** March 25, 2008, 14:18:56 PM »

Quote from: Ela on March 25, 2008, 12:35:13 PM

Quote
If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.

With the Manx I fully understand, in fact we have never been asked to take in a Manx although we did have one in once a stray I think. Then again we may have been asked to bring her in. But still only one in over 18 yrs, where as Bengals Siamese and Persians we are being asked to bring in every week.

Hi can I just make a comment on the Manx, I actually have a Manx who came through our rescue, we have had no end of problems with him!! he has had several operations with spinal problems, we love him to bits but I would definitely say breeding of the Manx is just breeding cats who may have several problems (not just spinal) I may be wrong but I'm sure they are no longer recognised by the governing body of the cat breeders

Gillian Harvey · « **Reply #64 on:** March 25, 2008, 13:25:38 PM »

As Susanne said, not all breeders are bad, in it for the money etc. I have only had good experiences with the two breeders I have come into contact with, both have become my very good friends and have continued to show interest in the cats I have had from them, one of them over 10 years now. Both breeders have been doing so for 20 or more years, neither of them have ever sold on any of their stud cats or breeding queens.

The breeding queens are mostly retired at around 7 or 8 years old, neutered and go on to live as part of the family. They are not kept in pens, they are first and foremost, pets, living in the house with all the other cats and the family. They are only bred once or twice at most, a year. Neither of these breeders has got rich from breeding their cats by any means - because they've never sold on any of their cats once they've been retired, they have plenty of mouths still to feed! and they wouldnt have it any other way.

One of them retired from breeding 4 or 5 years ago now, all her stud cats and breeding girls were neutered and live the life of Riley as they always have!

I wouldnt have my lovely Gwyngala or Joe, Sam, Lucy and Ben if it wasnt for these two breeders.

Beanie · « **Reply #63 on:** March 25, 2008, 13:08:17 PM »

Well I have to say this is turning into an excellent debate full of information from experienced cat rescue folk and some with a good knowledge of breeding.

Susanne said

Quote

reputable breeders do not make money out of cat breeding.

I do believe that there are an element where that is true but I wouldn't like to guess how many. I talk to breeders at shows and have seen both ends of the spectrum. As an aside, I was asked why I didn't show my cats at shows (NB: They are all moggies). I didn't have to think about it and replied because I love them too much to subject them to long trips and being kept in a small pen all day;besides they are all winners as far as I am concerned so they don't need judging.

Anyway, an example of profiteering is the new breed - The Toyger. Now let me first say that I simply cannot accept people wanting start a new breed. I have a simple rule - Don't mess with nature in this way; it is bigger and certainly more powerful than any of us.

The Toyger is said to be the brainchild of a US breeder (surprise! surprise!) called Judy Sugden. She spent 15 years cross breeding looking for some sort of perceived predetermined perfection. Up to October 2007 there were 3 UK 'breeders'. One UK breeder is reported to be selling them from between £550 to £1,100. A breeding quality cat can fetch £2,500. There is the anticipation that like the Bengal, it will become a celebrity cat and that will doubtless mean celebrity prices.

Susanne, I realise that this is not the established breeder end of the market. Many would probably share my view as they have standards. I would expect and hope that the governing bodies will not accept this breed because to do so would be to make somebody wealthy. It is difficult to see how the creation of this breed is not a simple money spinner.

Mark · « **Reply #62 on:** March 25, 2008, 12:45:39 PM »

Quote from: J (Indoorcatsuk) on March 25, 2008, 10:58:36 AM

I have a ' harsh ' attitude on this. I absolutely do not understand in any way at all how anyone who refers to themselves as a cat lover can ' order ' a cat to be born when there are so many beautiful cats in rescues ( that do not have no kill policys ) who will die simply because they are not the right flavour.
While I am absolutely not judging anyone on Purrs because I know how much we all absolutely adore our cats, I just don't understand it. It makes no sense to me. I find it appalling that breeders breed disability.
I do not care if X breed were to die out if it meant that all the moggies alive NOW got homes. It wouldn't bother me one bit. It's not like I am saying kill off X cat, just save the ones that are alive NOW.
Dogs I see differently, tho under the same mindset I find it equally appalling to breed when there are rescue dogs dying, I understand why someone would NEED as opposed to want a specific breed for a working task under very special circumstances.

100% agree. The RSPCA official figures for cats bought in to them last year was 57% PTS - I am sure the true figure is even higher. I also don't want to offend people but I know what I think.

Ela · « **Reply #61 on:** March 25, 2008, 12:35:13 PM »

Quote

If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.

With the Manx I fully understand, in fact we have never been asked to take in a Manx although we did have one in once a stray I think. Then again we may have been asked to bring her in. But still only one in over 18 yrs, where as Bengals Siamese and Persians we are being asked to bring in every week.

Yvonne · « **Reply #60 on:** March 25, 2008, 11:26:09 AM »

I am not sure where the Manx fits in here but I refuse to call them moggies because of a lack of papers, most people know what a Manx looks like. I have four cats, three moggies and one Manx moggie. If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.

Michelle (furbabystar) · « **Reply #59 on:** March 25, 2008, 11:17:17 AM »

ok here goes -

I dont agree with breeding, whether it moggies or ped's

Why would you want to put your cat through pregnancy - giving birth - and then to top it all off the Mummy isnt allowed to keep her babies !!
I have seen Mummy Cats looking and crying for their babies when they have been taken away and anyone who says that cats dont have a maternal feeling are wrong!

And i also dont agree that there is no money to be earnt when its Ped's.

I am for early neutering, If the babies stay with Mum till 12wks (as they should) then they could do done before they leave. I know rescue places ask for all kittens to be done by the new owners at 6mths but how many actually get done ?

Rosella moggy · « **Reply #58 on:** March 25, 2008, 11:07:06 AM »

I tend to agree with you J and cannot imagine allowing myself to home a cat from anything other than a rescue but, having said that, some pedigrees seen on here simply brighten my life. I am a terrible ditherer.

J (Indoorcatsuk) · « **Reply #57 on:** March 25, 2008, 10:58:36 AM »

I have a ' harsh ' attitude on this. I absolutely do not understand in any way at all how anyone who refers to themselves as a cat lover can ' order ' a cat to be born when there are so many beautiful cats in rescues ( that do not have no kill policys ) who will die simply because they are not the right flavour.
While I am absolutely not judging anyone on Purrs because I know how much we all absolutely adore our cats, I just don't understand it. It makes no sense to me. I find it appalling that breeders breed disability.
I do not care if X breed were to die out if it meant that all the moggies alive NOW got homes. It wouldn't bother me one bit. It's not like I am saying kill off X cat, just save the ones that are alive NOW.
Dogs I see differently, tho under the same mindset I find it equally appalling to breed when there are rescue dogs dying, I understand why someone would NEED as opposed to want a specific breed for a working task under very special circumstances.

Ela · « **Reply #56 on:** March 25, 2008, 09:01:27 AM »

Quote

In answer to a point Ela made earlier in the thread about the number of pedigree cats ending up in rescue, that is purely down to people not doing enough research before acquiring a pedigree cat.

When we home check for our moggies we go through everything with the prospective owner as we have a responsibility to our little ones to get it right, surely breeders have a responsibility to ensure that prospective owners know what they are letting themselves in for.

Quote

A clued-up future pedigree cat slave goes to shows, looks at the cats, talks to the breeders and exhibitors, looks at their own lifestyle etc before deciding on whether the breed they've set their heart on is right for them - and if not, what are possible alternatives?

But how many are clued-up? I know of loads of people who have thought it a good way to make money and have never been to a cat/dog show in their life. I could take you to a farm now where the breed dogs are in small cages for most of their sad little lives. A certain rescue has been told loads of times but they don’t want to know.. In another home not from me are numerous breed cats in one small room. Someone else I know allows her dog to breed solely to pay for an annual holiday, I cannot tell you how mad she was when the little one needed a caesarean for a litter. These are only a very small % of the homes I know about within a small area. I would say the number of bad breeders far outweighs any that are truly in it for the genuine love of cats.

Ela · « **Reply #55 on:** March 25, 2008, 08:22:50 AM »

Quote

This is a subject there will never be agreement on.

With that I do agree.

Quote

, but also ask them to understand and respect that not all breeders are these terrible people who don't care for their cats and treat them as breeding or profit making machines.

The sad thing is, I know loads of breeders and not one of them would admit they are in it for what they can make out of it, yet in reality the bottom line is they are and if they did not make out of it they would not breed, if there is a costly problem they are more worried about the cost and not the kitten/cats. I am sure if we are honest most of us have heard of supposedly reputable breeders would rather PTS a less than perfect cat/kitten.

Ela · « **Reply #54 on:** March 25, 2008, 08:06:23 AM »

Quote

Now surely if they loved them as pets and a part of the family how could they sell them on?

I agree with this comment 100%. Once they have out lived their usefulness in many, many cases they are a commoditythat is no longer wanted. I know no true cat lover could ever sell on or even give away their cat. (Unless of course there was a genuine health reason).

Ela · « **Reply #53 on:** March 25, 2008, 08:01:06 AM »

Quote

It is beyond my comprehension why a rescue would release an entire animal to a new home ....

Possibly because most vets in the UK will not neuter/spay until kittens are 5 - 6 months old. Cats Protection volunteers have a duty to ensure kittens homed are neutered/spayed at the age our vets will do so. If an owner does not take the kitten to the vets then we can and in one case did take the kitten back. When kittens are homed a new owner has to sign a homing form which is a legal document and one of the conditions is that a kitten be neutered when they are 6 months old at the latest.

Dawn (DiddyDawn) · « **Reply #52 on:** March 25, 2008, 01:26:19 AM »

Quote from: Desley (booktigger) on March 24, 2008, 17:12:07 PM

CC, peds without papers aren't copycats, they are moggies.

Personally I would just say they are peds without papers, definitely not moggies. Abigail is a definite 100% persian, I don't have the papers for her but she is a persian, the same as FooFoo and Shah are 100% persian

When I rehomed Vita who is a 100% Snow Marbled Bengal, again no papers but a definite Bengal, she needed a specific home and this had to be taken into account because of her breed. Certain breeds have specific needs and whether they have papers or not, those needs still need to be met and pedigree is pedigree, they don't go from pedigree to moggie overnight.

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #51 on:** March 25, 2008, 00:51:37 AM »

This is a subject there will never be agreement on. I respect the opinions of those who are opposed to any breeding, but also ask them to understand and respect that not all breeders are these terrible people who don't care for their cats and treat them as breeding or profit making machines. Undoubtably some do, but the good ones do not. We can't call breeders good or bad, because there are people at both ends of the spectrum and a lot everywhere in between. I, personally, can't say that I agree or disagree with breeding because I don't believe it's all or nothing. I agree with some breeding but not with the majority of breeding that takes place.

edited to remove part of post

Dawn (DiddyDawn) · « **Reply #50 on:** March 25, 2008, 00:48:09 AM »

Quote from: Desley (booktigger) on March 24, 2008, 19:09:13 PM

i have met a male who was neutered at 10 weeks, he was 16months when I last saw him and it hadn't affected his development. Here is their website, both were neutered at 10 weeks.

http://www.albertandflorence.com/

I would totally disagree with this as this isn't always the case. Kara was spayed at 5 months before we got her, her genitalia is under developed for her size and she also leaks constantly, I trust my vet and he puts this down to being too young when she was spayed. I didn't even realise she had a leakage problem only that she washes constantly down below and she is stained, we only found out the cause when she was in last year with her ears. The stain is from the urine burning her skin and she has had this since getting her, so I'm sorry but there are pros and cons to spaying and neutering early.

Welcome to Purrs MCAW, I was wondering when you were going to introduce yourself

ccmacey · « **Reply #49 on:** March 25, 2008, 00:28:08 AM »

Thats exactly the point Susanne, they get cats to breed, sure they may love them as pets at first but when there is no money to be made they sell them on making that final wage from them. Now surely if they loved them as pets and a part of the family how could they sell them on?

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #48 on:** March 25, 2008, 00:20:55 AM »

Barney - reputable breeders do not make money out of cat breeding. Quite the contrary, it costs a lot to do it properly and if there are any health problems it can end up costing a lot. When you add in the cost of showing, it's a very expensive hobby. Many breeders do sell retired breeding cats at 3-4 years of age, but rather than abandoning them, they do that because it's not good for their health to breed them too many times. So after a few litters, they spay their females and find them a loving forever home. A good breeder will put as much care into that as they do into rehoming their kittens. Some keep their retired breeding cats, esp the first one, but it's not always possible to keep every one if you retire them at an age that is good for them.

barney · « **Reply #47 on:** March 25, 2008, 00:08:43 AM »

Well from someone who is relatively new to the world of cats this is my perspective on it. Breeders are ultimately in it for the money, OK they might love a particular breed but the money side of things is the deciding factor. I would be interested to know how often they mate the same cat in a year. The reason I say that is because having visited certain breeders sites a lot seem to sell their queens and studs after only maybe 3 - 4 years. Which to me just goes to show how much they love their breed, basically they've used and abused the cats, as they are of no further breeding use so their up for sale. As for breeding breeds like the Sphinx, it looks awful, the poor cat probably feels awful itself and is bred for no other reason than to make money and for the owner to look 'cool' with a strange unusual looking animal. And a lot of other breeds run along the same lines as this ie Bengals.
As for moggie breeders again, I think some owners are uneducated or just get caught out, I know I did when I took in Mollie with a broken leg, at the time it was inappropriate to spay her, in hindsight we probably should have, but none of the kittens were sold. Four went to vetted homes and I kept two, all six have been spayed or neutered. I also think that what was once often referred to as the backstreet pet traders, I remember years ago seeing crate upon crate of animals in Petticoat lane market up for sale, fortunately this has now ceased, but it's only transfered to the hidden world wide web. So I am against breeding especially for money it just seems so immoral to me. Finally all my cats are priceless and nobody has enough money to buy them, cos I love em...

Reynard · « **Reply #46 on:** March 24, 2008, 23:03:37 PM »

I have come across a few breeders who will as a matter of course, have their vet do early neuters on their kittens before they are allowed to go to new homes.

IMHO that is a sensible thing to do as putting kittens not intended to be future queens and studs on the GCCF Non-Active register is absolutely no guarantee that they won't be bred from in the future. The Non-Active register is also no guarantee that the said kittens will be neutered. By homing kittens that are already neutered, it does prevent a whole host of potential problems, especially given that some owners are not as scrupulous as others.

In answer to a point Ela made earlier in the thread about the number of pedigree cats ending up in rescue, that is purely down to people not doing enough research before acquiring a pedigree cat. A clued-up future pedigree cat slave goes to shows, looks at the cats, talks to the breeders and exhibitors, looks at their own lifestyle etc before deciding on whether the breed they've set their heart on is right for them - and if not, what are possible alternatives?

Someone who rushes into getting a pedigree cat, perhaps because their favourite celebrity has got one or because it gets seen as a status symbol etc is usually the same person who chooses a breed that it inappropriate for them and then as a result, the poor cat ends up in rescue through no fault of its own. A friend of mine has recently given a home to an unwanted Sphynx.

Research into choosing a pedigree breed should go far deeper than looks. If you want a Siamese / Oriental / Tonkinese / Burmese, can you cope with the demanding temperament? If you want a Persian, can you keep on top of the grooming? If you want a Bengal, can you cope with both the activity levels and the possible dicky tums?

P.S. An oriental breeder friend of mine calls the current siamese "Little Aliens"

Ela · « **Reply #45 on:** March 24, 2008, 21:03:50 PM »

Quote

pedigrees only account for about 2% of the population

If that is true then it is an astonishing % that we are asked to bring into rescue as it is far more that 2% of the number we are asked to bring in.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #44 on:** March 24, 2008, 19:09:13 PM »

i have met a male who was neutered at 10 weeks, he was 16months when I last saw him and it hadn't affected his development. Here is their website, both were neutered at 10 weeks.

http://www.albertandflorence.com/

blackcat · « **Reply #43 on:** March 24, 2008, 19:08:09 PM »

as you are new to the site MCAW you would not be aware that Shadow is actually a large-breed dog.

MCAW · « **Reply #42 on:** March 24, 2008, 19:05:29 PM »

Hi We at MCAW

certainly would not agree with neutering at such an early age. The cat would not have the chance to develop natural hormones. Ferals

if absolutely necessary we would neuter at 4 months only because once trapped it may be very difficult to get the little

devils in the trap again! Also at this age you might find it quite difficult to calm them for re homing as domestic pets-8/10 weeks are mostly calmed for domestic homes.

Sorry Blackcat I thought we were talking about neutering kittens, but having said this we certainly agree dogs and bitches should be neutered as soon as they are old enough!

MCAW Do take in dogs and puppy's All dogs who come into our care that are old enough are neutered by our vet as are any cats or kittens that are old enough. Like most rescues we insist on neutering! If we home kittens say 12 weeks old we certainly check with the new owners vet that they have been brought in for neuter at the appropriate age. We check all prospective new owners veterinary info before we home.

Can I just say MCAW are a registered charity (and we do not get funding from anywhere other than donations and fundraising) all our workers are volunteers including the 5 trustees who are all multitasking from cleaning, trapping, looking after the office and nursing any sick cats or kittens we have in care!

Thank you for the welcome Dawn!

We will certainly be getting involved with the discussions when we have time as we are very often very busy. We have just reopened as we have had the building completely refurbished after having the dreaded Panleukopenia!! We are now adjusting to a strict Isolation and barrier nursing regime as we certainly do not ever want to go through such a traumatic time again!

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #41 on:** March 24, 2008, 17:52:34 PM »

I have been saying this for ages, but with the reaction from both the rescue I foster for and our vets, it is going to be a very long time before this changes - neither like the thought of operating on babies. Yet no issue in putting a male kitten through a hernia op!! One rescue near me neuters everything at 8 weeks, one at 10 weeks, but it isnt common practice, and therefore there aren't the vets with the experience.

blackcat · « **Reply #40 on:** March 24, 2008, 17:50:46 PM »

rescues in Oz, used to release puppies and kittens with a neuter voucher. Now they don't release them until they are done. Shadow had already had his stitches removed when I adopted him aged 4 months. It is beyond my comprehension why a rescue would release an entire animal to a new home ....

Author Topic: Breeding- agree or disagree? (Read 21649 times)

ccmacey