Author Topic: Urinary dry food diet question  (Read 10633 times)

Offline MrsR

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2008, 14:02:16 PM »
Thanks CC.    I spoke to my husband about it last night and we both trust our vet - he has always been fabulou swith our cats but I will be keeping close eyes on everyone.

Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2008, 13:54:25 PM »
MrsR its one of those things that there isnt a straight and simple answer to, current trends and thoughts/research/studies etc change the thoughts of pet food all the time, believe me i've seen plenty of change in the past 15 years.  Fortunately just now for me cody (my dry only eater) is very young & healthy (touch wood) & is very good drinking water several times per day all through day & night so it doesnt overly concern me just now.
You do what you believe is best and if you trust your vet/nurse take guidence from them and that is the best way to go i think.

Offline melysion

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2008, 12:23:44 PM »
IF a cat will eat wet food !

I know ... some cats are so addicted to the dry stuff arent they?

This article gives some useful info on switching from dry to wet

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=switchingfoods

Offline MrsR

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2008, 12:20:19 PM »
My Misha turns her nose up to it  :sick: - have tried and they first cat I've ever known to not want wet food.

I think this debate will go on and on - wish there was a plain and simpel answer to it.

Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2008, 12:17:50 PM »
IF a cat will eat wet food !

Offline melysion

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2008, 11:47:17 AM »
I don't really like prescription foods. They have their place, but they are usually full of animal by products and processed grains - two products I beleive should be avoided in your cats diet as much as possible.

For cats with FLUTD problems, I would strongly recommend a 100% wet food diet. Dry food is so dehydrating. Its no accident that cats on a wet food diet are often not seen to drink at all while cats on a dry food diet drink a lot. Its said that a cat on a wet food diet without drining water is still more hydrated than a cat on a 100% dry food diet with water. My toby is almost exclusively on  awet food diet and hardly ever drinks.

Some people add a teaspoon or so more water to wet food to encourage more fluid intake and I dont think thats a bad idea at all for cats with a history of FLUTD problems

Offline MrsR

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2008, 09:24:46 AM »
All my cats have always mainly eaten a dry food diet, Misha 100% as she doesn't eat soft foods!

Sylvester who has the problem hasn't had a recurrence since being on the RCU diet and they were getting more frequent.   All my other cats don't seem to be drinking more water than usual and seem fine on the diet so far.

Offline Teresa Pawcats

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2008, 09:22:40 AM »
Teresa does buster have crf issues.  Just thinking if he's been on this for a long time then you'd be in a good postion to comment (altho i know how good he looks & what age he is so whatever he's eating aint all that bad)

Buster had blood tests last year and all levels were normal; so no CRF.
I am afraid I am not very knowledgeable on food values etc. tend to take vets advice on feeding. Following his P.U. operation Buster was on Hills first one letter then another letter sorry cant remember . We changed vet in 2000 and vet prefers Royal Canin so Buster went onto RC urinary support then,he eats mainly dry food as does his girlfriend Tula so both have fed on this since 2000 and I am happy with it;only down side is cats are inclined to put on weight. Should add both Buster and Tula are the exception and drink sufficient to cope with an almost dry diet.

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2008, 21:51:55 PM »
Thanks Lynn, thats a  :censored: huge amount of salt

If they are saying that diluting the urine is the main factor in stopping the problem a wet diet would do a mighty fine job at sorting it out.

I agree, it seems a ridiculous idea to feed an unnatural diet like that, when you could feed a normal wet diet. I wouldnt want my cats to be eating something like that when it wasnt necessary.

We know that with urinary problems water intake is an issue - its a totally ludicrous way of solving the problem to my mind. If cats were fed an appropriate diet in the first place, there wouldnt be these issues.

That sounds a bit like the old "feed them dry to make them drink more" argument  :shify: :shify:

Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2008, 21:48:42 PM »
Teresa does buster have crf issues.  Just thinking if he's been on this for a long time then you'd be in a good postion to comment (altho i know how good he looks & what age he is so whatever he's eating aint all that bad)

Offline Gillian Harvey

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2008, 20:12:36 PM »
Thanks Lynn, thats a  :censored: huge amount of salt 

If they are saying that diluting the urine is the main factor in stopping the problem a wet diet would do a mighty fine job at sorting it out.

I agree, it seems a ridiculous idea to feed an unnatural diet like that, when you could feed a normal wet diet. I wouldnt want my cats to be eating something like that when it wasnt necessary.

We know that with urinary problems water intake is an issue - its a totally ludicrous way of solving the problem to my mind. If cats were fed an appropriate diet in the first place, there wouldnt be these issues.

Offline Teresa Pawcats

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2008, 19:23:35 PM »
All it says is 0.09percent if thats any help.

Offline Millys Mum

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2008, 18:39:16 PM »
RC dont put much on their bags  >:(


Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2008, 18:33:29 PM »
yeah thats what i thought and read it twice mm.  of course its not saying thats how much is in the food, anyone got a bag at home that could tell us how much sodium per 100g etc ?

Offline Millys Mum

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2008, 17:34:04 PM »
Thanks Lynn, thats a  :censored: huge amount of salt  :Crazy: :Crazy: The paper i read looked more at % of health issues being caused by the urinary diets. Still cant find it.....

If they are saying that diluting the urine is the main factor in stopping the problem a wet diet would do a mighty fine job at sorting it out.


Offline MrsR

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2008, 16:44:25 PM »
Awwwww thanks so much for that  ;) :thanks:

Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2008, 16:40:19 PM »
so in short if non of my cats had renal issues etc i prob would be ok with them all eating it but i'd be cautious if any had crf.

Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 16:39:23 PM »
I was just about to modify the last post that mentioned that MM...hang on

taken from http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-cover-stories/feline-nutrition-in-search-of-top-performance.aspx


Indeed, veterinary concerns related to struvite and calcium oxalate uroliths, and the difficulties in managing each, have been recognized by many veterinary diet manufacturers.  

Royal Canin Veterinary Diets in St. Charles, Mo., for example, has used the relative supersaturation (RSS) urinalysis technique, adapted from human medicine, as a means of measuring ion saturation in feline urine samples to predict the chance that struvite and calcium oxalate crystals will form.

With such data in hand, the company formulates its Urinary S/O diets to promote a urinary environment unfavorable to the development of both types of crystals.

“Using RSS is a lot more effective than just looking at pH,” says Brent Mayabb, DVM, technical services manager for Royal Canin.
 
“Veterinarians have had a lot of success managing struvite according to dietary pH, but it isn’t the driving factor with calcium oxalate. So in practice, veterinarians may see cats that constantly go back and forth between stone types. Those cats can be hard to manage medically, especially if the cat is a picky eater.”
 
 
These are the uroliths retrieved from the bladder of the cat pictured in the radiograph. They were removed non-surgically using a basket retrieval technique. Quantitative mineral analysis revealed that the stones were composed of 100 percent calcium oxalate monohydrate and the shell was composed of 10 percent calcium oxalate monohydrate and 90 percent calcium oxalate dihydrate. (Courtesy of Jody Lulich, Ph.D., University of Minnesota)
Royal Canin’s diets are formulated on the premise that, although control of urinary pH is effective in dissolving struvite crystals, it can’t be relied on to manage both struvite and calcium oxalate. In this respect, Royal Canin reports that urinary dilution has been shown as an effective way of limiting formation of both struvite and calcium oxalate.
  
Such dilution is achieved by increasing dietary sodium levels, producing an increase in urine volume.
 
“Sodium stimulates more drinking,” Dr. Mayabb says. “And that means the cat is urinating more frequently. So precursors to crystal or stone formation are flushed from the body quickly.”

In establishing sodium levels for its diets, Royal Canin refers to independent published studies as an indication that its foods are well within acceptable limits. Although absolute maximum levels of sodium have not been determined in cats, the company points to a 2006 report, National Research Council’s “Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats," which concluded that cats can tolerate a sodium concentration of 15 grams per kilogram per meal, so long as they have access to water.  

(i have to say i thought the the above sodium levels to be alarmingly high, this is the acceptable recommended daily amounts for children , i know cats are different and concentrate urine etc much more but even though it shocked me ) ---

The guidance says babies aged up to six months should consume less than one gramme of salt per day.

Older babies aged seven months to one year should consume around one gramme.

Children between one and six should consume no more than two grammes.

And children aged seven to 14 should have a maximum of five grammes.





Offline MrsR

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2008, 16:35:19 PM »
Urggggg I am really confused now  :Crazy:

Thanks Curlycatz for taking the time out  :thanks:

Offline Millys Mum

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2008, 16:32:24 PM »
Im trying to find a link i was sent about the extra salt in these diets and the knock on effects after long term use but i cant find it. Typical.


Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2008, 16:25:18 PM »
I've just spent the last 25 mins reading up on the rc urinary.  It would appear it is quite different to the urinary diets i am familiar with.  It provides unfavorable urinary condtions for both struvite & oxylate and also i meant to cause a more dilute urine (so more peeing) which is all the better as cats storing urine for long periods in their bladder (fairly normal for alot of cats) can be part of the problem.

after reading the info i just have i would be perfectly happy feeding a cat that hasnt any urinary probs this diet as its not causing the urine to swing in either direction but merely keeping it "in the balance" which is where it should naturally be at for urinary health.

Offline Millys Mum

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2008, 16:10:19 PM »
I agree with Gillian. A normal cat doesnt need a change in ph and may be sensitive to it, i dont take much notice of vets when it comes to dry food.
They tell me different things each time i go   :shify: :shify:

It would also cost a small fortune and make the vets a tidy sum.

I believe water is the most important thing for a cat, especially those with bladder issues.


Offline Michelle (furbabystar)

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2008, 10:09:23 AM »
I have a multi cat household, with 1 cat having urinary problems, and my vet told me it is ok for them all to eat RC Urinary dry food

Offline MrsR

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2008, 09:19:11 AM »
Buster has been on Royal Canin Urinary tract support dry food for 10 years;it means that a couple of other long termers have to also eat it; we checked with the vet and were told it is the one prescription food that is safe to give them all.

This is what I've been told by my vet and senior vet nurse (who is the wife of the vet at our practice).

Offline Desley (booktigger)

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2008, 08:16:19 AM »
Hills do 2 different diets, whereas RC Dont, so I suspect RC would be better to give multiple cats (their kidney diet does cover one of the two kinds of stones). I personally would be giving them mainly wet food and Cystaid though, my foster still had cystitis issues while on Hills urinary dry
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Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 23:12:50 PM »
right if we are talking struvite & prescrip foods for that, initially a cat would normally be placed on a diet that will produce a urine that will actively dissolve, patients are normally only on this for a few months maximum then get swapped onto a maintenence diet, this type of diet will still alter the urine ph but to a slightly less degree but this should "prevent" the formation of crystals (and thus stones)

The dissolving food should not be fed to other cats (although a stolen meal obviously wont harm) but long term there should be no probs with feeding the maintence ones which are normally providing a urinary ph of late 5's to mid 6's MAX. 

(got to add i am most familiar with hills and know the above is correct for it, altho i would have suspected same for others i do not know for sure)

Offline blackcat

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 19:38:47 PM »
I would imagine that he is on a diet for struvite stones? - if so then I don't think healthy cats should eat it as it aims to acidify the urine - so it would over-acidify a healthy cat's urine which could predispose them to the other type of stones - oxalate.

yep that's what the vet told me !

Offline Teresa Pawcats

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 19:35:40 PM »
Buster has been on Royal Canin Urinary tract support dry food for 10 years;it means that a couple of other long termers have to also eat it; we checked with the vet and were told it is the one prescription food that is safe to give them all.

Offline Gillian Harvey

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2008, 19:32:34 PM »
I would imagine that he is on a diet for struvite stones? - if so then I don't think healthy cats should eat it as it aims to acidify the urine - so it would over-acidify a healthy cat's urine which could predispose them to the other type of stones - oxalate.

Offline Mark

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2008, 19:04:22 PM »
The way I see it is, for example urinary food is low Protein. If it didn't harm a cat with Urinary tract problems, why would it harm any other cat. I read something about if healthy cats eat it to supplement their diet with extra protein - but check with a vet 1st.
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Offline CurlyCatz

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2008, 18:57:18 PM »
As far as i was always led to believe (did have my hills animal nutritionist certs) healthy animals on urinary diets would suffer no adverse effects.  I am not saying that is the same for any prescrip diets obviously but the urinary ones (as i say as far as i know) would be ok.

Offline blackcat

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Re: Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2008, 18:19:18 PM »
As an Australian, who has had this sort of problem myself, my vet (and the one in New Zealand as well) advised against using the urinary food for healthy cats. However he was perfectly happy for me to use the standard Hills diet for all cats once the episodes were past. Bob had recurring difficulties in this department from about age 11 to age 19 when he passed due to unrelated causes. During acute episodes he was fed the urinary food and antibiotics, however the rest of the time was on standard Hills Science Diet. Others on this forum will advise against dry food for animals with these sorts of probs, however it worked well for Bob and me as his episodes usually only happened either during periods of stress.


Offline MrsR

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Urinary dry food diet question
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2008, 18:12:22 PM »
My biggest boy has been put on a Royal Canin Urinary dry food diet as he has had multiple near blockages - he is doing very well on the diet and my vet said the rest of my cats can go onto this food also no problem as I have a multicat household - however on another cat forum I was told by someone who phoned Royal Canin (Australia) that cats who don't have urinary problems shouldn't be on it - anyone  have any experience?

All my cats seem to love it and are happy on it.

 


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